44 – Lucy W. Kimball

1: State your name please to the reporter?
Lucy W. Kimball.

2: Where do you reside, Mrs. Kimball?
In Logan at present. My former home was Salt Lake, but I reside at Logan now.

3: Where is that?
Logan?

4: Yes ma’am?
It is in Cache County.

5: In what territory?
Utah.

6: Where did you reside before you went to Logan?
I said it was Salt Lake City.

7: Well, where did you reside before you came to Utah Territory?
It was in Salt Lake at my home here.

8: Well where did you reside before moving to Salt Lake City?
It was in Nauvoo. We came from Nauvoo here. Of course we went to Provo for a short time, and I suppose it was, – it has nothing to do with this I expect.

9: What state was Nauvoo in?
It was in Illinois.

10: What church, if any, were you a member of while at Nauvoo?
The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

11: About what time did you move to Nauvoo, Illinois. first?
Well, we moved there in 1841.

12: How long did you live there?
We came away in 1846. Is that right? Yes, we came away in 1846.

13: Who was the highest officer in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, in Nauvoo, at the time you lived there? not the best evidence.
 

14: You may answer the question?
At that time, that is, at the time that we were living in Nauvoo, or went there?

15: Yes madam?
Well President Joseph Smith was up to the time of his death.

16: State to the reporter, if you know, if anything, in regard to plural marriage, or what is commonly called polygamy? As to its being taught or practiced in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Nauvoo Illinois, by the members of that church, before the death of the prophet, Joseph Smith?
Well it is not hearsay with me. Do you wish me to state what I know about it?

17: Yes, you may state what you know about it?
Well I know,

18: Now state what you know of your own personal knowledge, Mrs. Kimball, and not what you heard, or what some one told you, but state what you know positively of your own knowledge, remember that?
Well, we looked upon Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and believed what he taught and said.
(continued) “And the Lord commanded him to take other wives, as we understand it, and we believe he did.

19: State to the reporter whether or not that doctrine was ever taught to you personally?
Yes sir.

20: It was taught to you personally?
It was.

21: Do you know that of your own knowledge?
Yes sir it was taught to me personally, and I was married to the prophet Joseph Smith.

22: You were married to Joseph Smith, you say?
Yes sir.

23: Who performed the ceremony when you were married to Joseph Smith?
Elder William Clayton, and I accepted it as a special command from God.
I thought it was facts that I was to state to you and when I do so you object to them.

24: You were asked to state what you know of your own knowledge?
 
Well that is what I am doing. I stated that he taught me that doctrine, and that I was married to him, and these are facts that I know of my own knowledge, and yet you object to it.

25: Pay not attention to them Mrs. Kimball, for they are here to make objections, but you have nothing to do with that at all. It is their privilege to make all the objections they please, but that should not effect your answer, for you are to go right ahead and answer just the same as if no objection had been made. Now you may state to the reporter when you were married to Joseph the prophet as nearly as you can.
It was the first day of May 1848.

26: You may state if there was any one present, and if so, who they were when that ceremony was performed?
Well, there was Miss Eliza Partridge. She was the only witness we had to the ceremony.

27: State to the reporter as nearly as you can when you first heard of this principle of plural marriage, – that is, when you first heard it taught?
Well, in 1842 was the time. That was the time that this principle was first taught, but it was revealed to the prophet in ’31, but he did not teach it then only to a very few in whom he had confidence and felt he would rust absolutely, fot he felt the importance and responsibility of the step he was taking.

28: State who it was taught you that principle in 1842?
It was President Joseph Smith.

29: Can you state the circumstances under which he first taught you that principle?
Well, the circumstances were these, – it was a command from God to me to receive it, and I would rather have laid down my life than disobeyed it, but it was a grand and glorious principle that was to be established, and when I was called upon I stepped forward and gave myself up as a sacrifice to establish that principle, and I did that in the face of prejudice, of course. In this day and age of the world we are considered fanatics of course, more or less. I gave myself up as a sacrifice, for it was not a love matter, so to speak, in our affairs, – at least on my part it was not, – but simply the giving up of myself as a sacrifice to establish that grand and glorious principle that God had revealed to the world. Counsel foe the plaintiff objects to the answer of the witness on the ground and for the reasons given in the objection to the question to which it is an answer and on the additional ground that it is not responsive to the question, and moves the court to strike it from the record for those reasons.

30: Did you ever live with Joseph Smith as his wife?
He was my husband sir.

31: What difference, if any, is there in the principle of plural marriage as taught you by Joseph Smith, and the principle of plural marriage as published by the church in their revelation published by them, here in Utah.
there is not any.

32: That is all? Cross examination by P. P. Kelley,-
 

33: Where were your born, Mrs. Kimball?
I was born in Vermont.

34: In what year were you born?
In 1826.

35: When did you first become a member of the church?
It was when I was nine years of age. 36:

35: Where?
Where did I become a member of the church?

37: Yes, madam, -at what place did you join the church?
In Ogdensburg.

38: That is in New York Sate?
Ye sir.

39: What month in the year were you born?
The 30th of April 1826.

40: On the 30th of April?
Yes sir.

41: What was your mane:
Walker.

42: What was your father’s name?
John Walker.

43: In what year did you unite with the church?
Well it was when I was nine years old.

44: Well what year would that be?
In ’34 I expect.

45: That would be ’35 would it not? That would be in ’35 wouldn’t it Mr.s Kimball?
Yes sir, I suppose so.

46: When was the first time you ever say Joseph Smith, in what month and year?
It was in 1841, I don’t remember the month, but I remember it was in the spring sometime.

47: In the spring of 1841 you first saw Joseph Smith?
Yes sir.

48: Where did you first see him?
When I came to Nauvoo, I first saw him there.

49: You first met him when you came to Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

50: And that was when you cme to Nauvoo?
Yes sir. We took dinner at his house when we came there with our family.

51: Now you became a member of the church in 1835 did you?
Ye sir.

52: And you never at any time saw Joseph Smith until 1841?
Yes sir I did not see him before that.

53: And yet you swear tht he received a revelation on polygamy in 1831, notwithstanding the fact that you did not see him until 1841? Is that what you sear to Mrs. Kimball?
Well that was his statement to me I know.

54: You were asked to state only what you knew of your personal knowledge, -and you made the statement that what you were sating was of your personal knowledge- Now do you say as your personal knowledge that he received a revelation on polygamy in 1831?
 

30: Did you ever live with Joseph Smith as his wife?
He was my husband sir.

31: What difference, if any, is there in the principle of plural marriage as taught you by Joseph Smith, and the principle of plural marriage as published by the church in their revelation published by the, here in Utah.
There is not any.

32: That is all? Cross examination by P.P. Kelley, –
 

33: Where were you born, Mrs. Kimball?
I was born in Vermont.

34: In what year were you born?
In 1826.

35: When did you first become a member of the church?
It was when I was nine years of age.

36: Where?
Where did I become a member of the church?

37: Yes, madam, – at what place did you join the church?
In Ogdensburg.

38: That is in New York State?
Yes sir.

39: What month in the year were you born?
The 30th of April 1826.

40: On the 30th of April?
Yes sir.

41: What was your name?
Walker.

42: What was your fathers name?
John Walker.

43: In what year did you unite with the church?
Well it was when I was nine years old.

44: Well what year would that be?
In ’34 I expect.

45: That would be ’35 would it not? That would be in ’35 wouldn’t it Mrs. Kimball?
Yes sir, I suppose so.

46: When was the first time you ever saw Joseph Smith, – in what month and year?
It was in 1841, I don’t remember the month, but I remember it was in the spring sometime.

47: In the spring of 1841 you first saw Joseph Smith?
Yes sir.

48: Where did you first see him?
When I came to Nauvoo, I first saw him there.

49: You firs met him when you came to Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

50: And that was when you came to Nauvoo?
Yes sir. We took dinner at his house when we came there with our family.

51: Now you became a member of the church in 1835 did you?
Yes sir.

52: And you never at any time saw Joseph Smith until 1841?
Yes sir. I did not see him before that.

53: And yet you swear that he received a revelation on polygamy in 1831, notwithstanding the fact that you did not see him until 1841? Is that what you swear to Mrs. Kimball?
Well that was his statement to me I know.

54: You were asked to state only what you knew of your personal knowledge, – and you made the statement that what you were stating was of your personal knowledge – Now do you say as your personal knowledge that he received a revelation on polygamy in 1831?
 

55: Answer the question?
Well that is the only answer I can give, for I have his word for it.

56: Then you don’t know anything about it at all, personally, do you? Is not that the fact?
Well of course I was not there and did not see him receive it, but I have his word that he did receive it.

57: Now do you know anything at all about it only what he told you?
Yes sir.

58: What is it?
I know as much about it as I do that there is a command of God that was delivered to him, that he should take others.

59: Take other wives?
Yes sir.

60: Well do you know anything about his receiving a revelation on polygamy in 1831?
Well I know just this that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and I believed just what he told me about it.

61: Well you don’t know anything about it at all only just what you heard?
I know what he told me himself.

62: Well is that what you heard about it?
Yes sir.

63: And you did know anything about it only that?
No sir, only that and what is written.

64: You never saw that revelation during his lifetime?
No sir. Did you say saw the revelation?

65: Yes madnm?
Yes sir, I did.

66: You saw the revelation?
Yes sir.

67: Where did you see it?
At our home.

68: Where was that?
At the Nauvoo mansion.

69: At what time was that?
Well I don’t know for I was a member of the family and I only know from him.

70: Well what time did you see that revelation?
That was in 1842.

71: It was in 1842?
Yes sir.

72: You saw the revelation then?
It was not written.

73: It was not written, you say, – what do you mean by that?
It was not written to present to the church.

74: Well, was it printed?
No sir. It was written later than that.

75: For presentation to the church it was written later than that?
Yes sir.

76: Well was it written at the time you saw it in 1842?
Of course it was.

77: And that was in 1842?
Yes sir, – that is, it was in manuscript, you know. He told me of the revelation.

78: What revelation was it?
The one on plural marriage.

79: You are sure about that?
Of course I am.

80: You are just as positive of that as any thing else you have testified to?
Yes sir.

81: You are?
Yes sir.

82: And there is no doubt about it?
No sir.

83: Now if you are mistaken in that you are mistaken in about everything else you have testified to, are you not?
Well, –

84: Answer the question, yes or no, – if you are mistaken in that you are mistaken in everything else you have testified to? If you are mistaken when you say that the revelation you saw there in 1842 was the revelation on plural marriage, then you are mistaken in everything else you have sworn to, for you say you are as positive of that as of anything else you have testified to?
Well now I would not be positive as to just the time, – that is, as to the express time, – but I know that it was not written, – it was not presented to the High Council for their acceptance until, I think it was 1843.

85: You don’t know as a matter of fact whether it was ever presented to the High Council for acceptance or rejection at all or not, do you?
Well I read the proceedings of the council, –

86: You did?
Yes sir.

87: In what paper, or where did you read that?
Well it was in, – well, now I can’t tell you what paper it was.

88: Was it in the Times and Seasons?
I could not tell you that sir. I can’t tell you I believe.

89: Did you read it at all?
Yes sir.

90: But you can’t say from what you read it?
I had it in my possession, – the proceedings of that high Council, and those that were present at the time.

91: Have you that now?
I think.

92: Will you produce it when you return here, – that is, the proceedings of that High Council?
I can when I return, – if I do return.

93: What is the date of it?
Of what?

94: The meeting of that High Council in which this was acted on?
I don’t know that I can tell you the exact date.

95: You are sure it was acted on?
Yes sir.

96: Was it during the lifetime of Joseph Smith?
Yes sir.

97: Now don’t you know it was in 1845?
No sir.

98: Well if it was not in 1845 when was it?
It was, I think in 1843 if I am not very much mistaken.

99: Are you positive that it was in 1848?
No sir, I would not be positive of the date, but I think it was then.

100: Do you know what paper it was published in?
Well I could send you the paper and that is the best testimony.

101: Well can you send me the record of the High Council, made at the time it was presented to them?
I can send you the sketch, or at least the testimony of those that were there.

102: When was that testimony made up, or when was it given?
I can not tell you that?

103: Don’t you know it was not made until long years after Joseph Smith was dead?
I can’t tell you that.

104: Don’t you know when it was made?
No sir.

105: Don’t you know it was made here in Utah?
I could send it here to you and you could see when it was made.

106: Well don’t you know that?
That is something I can’t tell you.

107: Well don’t you know that?
That is something I can’t tell you.

108: And don’t you know Mrs. Kimball that you have not a scrap of writing anywhere, and you never saw a scrap of writing anywhere of the proceedings of the High Council held in Nauvoo in 1843 or 1844 or of any meeting of the High Council before the death of Joseph Smith, showing that this revelation was ever presented to them? Don’t you know that you have no such document as that?
I can send you the testimony of those who were present.

109: Well, have you any such document as that?
Yes sir.

110: A document purporting to be the proceedings of the High Council in Nauvoo in 1843 or 1844 made at the time the council was in session, and published at that time before the world, – before the death of Joseph Smith? I mean a document showing that the revelation on polygamy had been presented to the High Council?
It was not published before the world.

111: Well, was it written before the death of Joseph Smith?
Yes sir.

112: What was written?
The revelation was written.

113: Well, I refer to the proceedings of the high council at which you say it was presented?
Well, now I may possibly be able to furnish you that, – I could not say whether I could or not, but possibly I might be able to do so.

114: Well, now Mrs. Kimball, I will give you from now to the first day of September, if you will promise to send that to the Commissioner who is taking your testimony, – that kind of a document, and feel under a deep obligation to you if you will do so?
The proceedings of the high council written at the time?

115: Yes madam, showing that this alleged revelation was presented to them for their adoption? Now I don’t want somebody’s affidavit of what occurred there, – but I want the statement of the proceedings of the High Council as they were written down at the time which show that this revelation was presented to them for their adoption.
Well I think that I can do that, but if I can’t you don’t want the affidavit?

116: No I don’t want the affidavit. I want the proceedings of the High Council at which that revelation was presented for adoption before the death of Joseph Smith, and I don’t want an affidavit. I want the proceedings as they were written down at the time.
Well, I understand now what you want.

117: You are sure there is such a document in existence?
I am not. I am not positive.

118: You are not positive?
No sir.

119: But your best recollection is that you have it?
I am not positive that I have it.

120: Well that is your best recollection, is it not, that you have it?
I can’t say, but I will make search for it, and if I can find it I will send it to you with pleasure.

121: Well is it yout best recollection now that you have such a document?
I think I have.

122: Who did you obtain it from, if you ever did obtain it?
Well I think it is in the Times and Seasons, but I am not sure that it is there. I could look it up however and see if it is there. Had I know before I left home I should have looked these things up, and made an effort to secure the facts.

123: i will ask you if that is the paper, – if that is the publication you are thinking of, – (handing witness a paper)?
No sir.

124: That is not it?
No sir.

125: Is the paper you speak of an original paper, written, or is it printed?
It is printed. It is a printed affidavit that I refer to now, and as for being positive that I have the proceedings of the High Council, written in book form, I could not say sir.

126: Whose affidavit do you refer to?
Why it is that of Leonard Lovey, – he is the man.

127: Leonard Lobey?
Yes sir.

128: Is that all you have?
Well, I could not tell you. My books and papers are filed away, and I could not tell you without making an examination of them to see what there is there with reference to it, if there is any thing.

129: Look at this which I now hand you, and say whether or not that is the same affidavit you have reference to?
Yes sir.

130: You recognize that as the same one?
Yes sir, I recognize that as it.

131: That is the paper you referred to?
Yes sir, that is the affidavit I spoke of, but whether I have the other paper you spoke of I am not positive.

132: State to the examiner when that paper was published that you have in your hand?
This affidavit?

133: Yes madam, – the paper that contains the affidavit of Leonard Sobey, -when it was published?
Jan. 21st 1886.

134: That is the date of its publication?
Yes sir.

135: Now you have an affidavit of Leonard Soby’s made in 1843?
No sir.

136: or in 1844?
No sir, but I have the names of that council.

137: You got that from the church record, did you not?
Yes sir.

138: Now will you say Mrs Kimball that after return to your home, if you can find the original minutes of the High Council held in Nauvoo in 1843 that you will send them to the commissioner who is now taking your testimony?
I will.

139: You will do that?
Yes sir. I certainly shall.

140: Are you the custodian of the church records?
Well, not exactly. I have records, however, of my own, – that is, I have books and papers of my own.

141: Have you got any records of the High Council prior to 1944?
Well, not in my possession.

142: Have you them at home?
Well I think so.

143: Are you sure that you have?
I am pretty positive that I have, but I would not say positively that I have.

144: Well in what shape is it?
Why it is in the usual shape, of course.

145: Well I mean in what shape is it with reference to its being printed or written?
Why of course it is printed. As a matter of course it is printed. It is the church records, – the church history.

146: Is it in the Times and Seasons?
Well there is some things in the Times and Seasons of course.

147: Is there any thing in the Millenial Star?
Yes sir.

148: Are those the books you refer to?
Yes sir.

149: Are there any others that you can refer to as containing it?
Well I could not say.

150: Well, what is your best impression as to that?
Well now, really, I could not answer that, for I don’t know.

151: Now when you refer to the church records, you refer to what is in the Times and Seasons and the Millenial Star, do you not?
I did.

152: That is what you referred to?
Yes sir.

153: Were you ever in Jackson County, Missouri?
No sir.

154: Were you ever in Far West, Missouri?
No sir.

155: What month in the year did you come to Nauvoo in?
I could not say.

156: Well what is your best impression in regard to that?
I could not state the month, but I think it was in the spring, I don’t know that I ever knew the month, – of course I did though at one time, but it has passed from memory, but I think it was along in the spring.

157: In the spring of 1841 or 1842?
In the spring of 1841.

158: Well in 1841 you came to Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

159: How old were you when you got there?
I could not tell you.

160: You do not know how old you were when you arrived at Nauvoo?
Well of course you have the date of my birth, and you can tell as well as I. If I knew the date that I arrived there at Nauvoo I could tell you exactly how old I was.

161: Well do you know how old you were when you went there?
I went there in 1841.

162: Well the question is, – do you know how old you were when you went there?
Well you have it there, – you know the date of my birth and the time I got there and that is enough.

163: You were fifteen were you not?
Well, –

164: Well, were you fifteen when you went there?
Well, I think, – I don’t think we went there before my fifteenth birthday, I don’t remember how that was.

165: If ou went there before the 30th of April 1841 you were not fifteen before you got there, for that would be your fifteenth birthday wouldn’t it?
Yes sir.

166: Well where did you live in Nauvoo after you got there? What house or whose house did you live in after you got there?
Well I don’t remember that either, for my mother was very sick at that time we got there, and for some time afterwards she continued to be very sick, and I don’t remember whose house we lived in first after we got there.

167: You lived in Joseph Smith’s house after you went there didn’t you?
Well, after my mother’s death I did.
Well she died in January 1841.

169: In January 1841 your mother died?
Yes sir.

170: Did she die after you got there?
Yes sir, she did.

171: Then if she died then, you must have got there in 1840?
I think not. I think we must have got there in the spring of 1841 because I know my mother was there.

172: If you got there to Nauvoo in the spring of 1841 did not your mother die in the spring of 1842?
Oh yes, it would be 1842, for she died in the January after we got there.

173: I should think so too?
Yes sir, it was in 1842 that mother died.

174: You were there about a year before your morher died?
Yes sir.

175: Now is it not a fact that you and your mother mother lived in Joseph’s house after you got there?
No sir we lived in our own house until after mother’s death.

176: Then where did you live?
Well I lived with the prophet’s family from that time on up to the date of his martyrdom.

177: Then from about the first of the year 1842 up to the 27th of June 1844 you lived with the prophet at his house?
Yes sir.

178: What were you doing?
I spent most of the time with Don Carlo’s widow after his death.

179: Then it is a fact that you were not with the family of the prophet all the time?
Well no, not all the time, but I was back and forth between the two families.

180: You said you were with whose widow most of the time?
The widow of Don Carlo Smith, – of course that was after he was dead?

181: Well where did you make your home?
In the mansion, that is, after we moved into the mansion I did.

182: What number was the number of your room in the mansion?
Well, I don’t know that my room was numbered. I don’t know that there was any number on it all.

183: Were you acknowledged there as a member of the family?
Well I don’t know that we were acknowledged, but we were considered as members of the one family.

184: Were you acknowledged there as a member of the family?
Well I don’t know that we were acknowledged, but we were considered as members of the one family.

185: Was there a dozen or fifteen or only six?
I could not tell you sir.

186: Well don’t you know that there was but four besides the kitchen? Is not that correct?
Well now there was four in the front part of the house, and a large dining room, – and there was two chambers. That family occupied one portion of the house there.

187: That is your recollection?
Yes sir – that is my recollection, but of course a person can’t have a very distinct and well defined idea of something that has happened nearly half a century ago.

188: Well how many rooms was there in the house all told?
I never counted them.

189: Do you swear that you never counted them?
I don’t believe I did.

190: And you don’t know how many rooms there was in that house?
No sir.

191: Although you were in that house every day, or almost every day for two and a half years, you never counted the rooms that were in it, and did not know how many there was?
It never occurred to me to count them, and as I had no desire to do so I didn’t do it.

192: Did you live in the same part of the house as the family did?
I always did and I took my meals in the same place.

193: And you roomed there in the same house with the family?
Yes sir.

194: In the same rooms?
No sir, in the same house, but not in the same rooms, for we had our own bed rooms, or private rooms.

195: With whom did you room?
My sister.

196: With which sister?
My oldest sister.

197: Well what was her name?
Catherine.

198: Then there was yourself and your sister Catherine roomed together?
Yes sir.

199: What else was her name besides Catherine?
Catherine Walker was her name.

200: Now she went there the same time you did?
Yes sir.

201: In 1842?
Yes sir, and about the same time as I did.

202: And you both stayed there until the prophet’s death?
Well I stayed there until my oldest brother married.

203: Well when did he marry?
Well he married in 1843.

204: In 1843?
Yes sir.

205: And then you went away?
In the fall of 1843 I think it was. I think it was in August, but I would not be positive, but I think that was the time he got married.

206: Well after your brother got married you went and stayed with him, and left the mansion house as a place of residence?
Yes sir, I went and stayed with my brother.

207: What become of your sister?
She remained there.

208: You went to live with your brother, but your sister still remained in the mansion house?
Yes sir.

209: And that was in August, you think of 1843?
Yes sir, that is my best recollection of the date.

210: Where did you father live at that time, or was he dead?
Well he was in the east for several years after that.

211: Then what you stated a while ago that you had lived with Joseph Smith from the time of the death of your mother up to the time of his death is not true?
I did not live under the same roof.

212: Well you said a while ago that you lived with the family up to the time of his death?
Well we always considered it as the family, for my brother always lived there up to the time he was married, and was there for six months afterwards, and that is how I had the privilege of going and staying with them, for when they had a family I thought the caring for the smaller children that were there was too much for the young wife, and so I wanted to go with them and begged that privilege.

213: That is with your brother and his family?
Yes sir.

214: You said that you did not go to Missouri at all did you not?
Yes sir, not to Jackson County or to Far West, but when they left I went with them as far as Shoal Creek I think it was called, I believe it was five miles from there.

215: Five miles from Shoal Creek?
Yes sir, it was at the time of the massacre.

216: Well when I asked you a while ago if you had been in Missouri you said no, didn’t you?
I said I did not go to Far West, I don’t think there was anything said about Missouri.

217: Well how far were you then from Far West, how far is Shoel Creek from Far West?
We were five miles from Shoal Creek and I don’t know just how far that is from Far West.

218: Then from the time that your mother died up to the time that your brother got married, you and your sister and brother all lived at the house of the prophet?
Yes sir.

219: Who else lived there at that time besides the family?
Well, besides who, whose family? I don’t know what you mean.

220: Well I am talking about Joseph Smith’s family, who else lived there in the house besides Joseph Smith and the members of his family, that is, besides Emma and the children he had by her?
Well there was two of Bishop Partridge’s daughters there.

221: Two of Bishop Partridge’s daughters were there at the same time you say?
Yes sir.

222: Were they there all the time?
Yes sir.

223: That was the place they stayed all the time?
Yes sir.

224: What were they doing there?
Well that was their home.

225: Well they remained there until his death did they?
I am not sure about that. I am not positive on that point.

226: Well you lived there you said, and you ought to know?
Well after I went away with my brother, I am not positive whether after that they lived there constantly or not. I know that they considered it their home and I am rather of the opinion that they stayed right there, though I could not be positive.

227: Then the prophet’s family, in addition to himself and his wife, Emma and their children, consisted of you and your sister and brother and two of Bishop Partridge’s daughters?
Yes sir, but there was ano- ther one, for I had two brothers there.

228: You had two brothers there instead of one?
Yes sir.

229: Then there was four of your family and two of the bishop’s girls, besides the prophet and his wife Emma and their family?
Yes sir.

230: Was there any body else there from the time that you went there in 1842 until the time that he died?
Yes sir.

231: Who were they, – give their names?
The Lawrence girls were there, – the Lawrence sisters were there a part of the time at least.

232: How many of them were there?
There was two of them.

233: When were they there, – was it the same time you were there?
Yes sir.

234: You were all there at the same time?
Yes sir.

235: Were they there when you left?
They were not there prior to the time of moving into the mansion house.

236: Well from the time that the family moved into the mansion house up to the time that you left with your brother they were there, and you left them there when you left, did you not?
I really do not remember whether they left before my brother did or not.

237: Did Joseph Smith keep hotel there?
Yes sir.

238: Then you were there as servant girls, all of you, – were you not?
No sir.

239: Do you swear that you were not there as servant girls in the house?
No sir we had nothing to do with the house, – with the hotel, for he had a negro cook and a black washer-woman, and he hired a girl to look after the dining room, and we looked after the rest of the house.

240: Well what did you do in your duty of looking after the rest of the house?
We did whatever was neces- sary, – some of us did sewing for the family, and as young Joseph said, it was my privilege to get them off to school in the morning, – and that was about all that I had to do.

241: Then neither yourself nor your sister, nor the Law- rence girls were employed there for any purpose?
No sir.

242: You just lived there?
Yes sir, that was our home and Joseph did not look upon us as servants.

243: How did Emma his wife look upon you?
She did not look upon us as servants either.

244: He furnished you clothing for what you did?
Yes sir, and took care of the house and did the sewing and all that sort of thing.

245: Did he hire you to go there, or did Emma hire you?
We were not hired to go there at all. There was nothing of the servant about our being there. We were not hired at all.

246: Well you were asked to go there, you did not go without being asked?
I expect not.

247: Well did he ask you to go there, or did Emma?
Well he asked us to come there and so did Emma. Joseph Smith was very fond of children and had a large family, and when our mother passed away, he invited us to come there and make it our home.

248: And that is how you came to be there?
Yes sir.

249: Well now was it in the mansion house that he taught you polygamy?
Yes sir.

250: It was in the mansion house that he first taught you polygamy?
 
No sir, it was not there.

251: Did you not just say that it was in the mansion house that he taught you polygamy?
Yes sir, but I did not say that that was where he first taught it, for it was before that that he taught it to me. You see he did not move into the mansion house until the fall of 1843 and I was taught that by him before that.

252: In the fall of 1843 in, -in what month was it that you moved into the mansion house?
It was in November 1843 I think.

253: Have you not been testifying that you went there when your mother died in 1842?
Well that is right, for we did go into the prophet’s home that was on the bank of the river first, but when the mansion house was finished we went into that in the fall of 1843, but before that we lived on the bank of the river.

254: What was that house called?
Well it was called the prophet’s home or the prophet’s house, -I forget which.

255: It was called the prophet’s home?
Yes sir, I think so.

256: How big was that house?
Well it was quite big, or large enough to make all the family comfortable that was there.

257: Well was that the hotel building?
No sir, but there was so many strangers coming there from distant quarters to Nauvoo, who would be seekers after the truth and such as that who wanted entertainment, that that was the reason that the mansion house was built so that there might be room for entertainment.

258: And that was the mansion house?
Yes sir, for that house was always full, and that was the reason the mansion house was built.

259: Well what did all you females do that were there in that house?
We all did whatever there was for us to do.

260: Did any of them marry/
They did, and whenever they married the prophet gave them, -or did for them whatever was necessary to furnish their home and make them comfortable.

261: who did he do that for/
My brother.

262: Well I as asking you about the girls that were there, -your sister, the Lawrence girls and the Partridges?
I thought you meant my brothers.

263: When your brother married Joseph Smith gave him some assistance?
Yes sir, he helped him off in the world as well as he could, for the prophet was a very kind, thoughtful, big-hearted man.

264: When your brothers were living there did they work for the prophet?
Why certainly they did,-they were industrious boys and were never idle.

265: Well what did they do?
Whatever there was to do.

266: Was there,-did they work around the house and in the garden?
Yes sir.

267: Were you always busy?
Yes sir.

268: What were you doing?
Oh we were not idle, -we were always busy, almost, for there was enough around the house for us to do. We were not idlers. There were no idlers in Nauvoo at that time.

269: Well what particular word did you do?
Well I did sewing mostly, but of course after we moved into the mansion house there was a great dealt to be done, fitting up and getting things in shape.

270: That (What) did the Partridge girls do?
Well the elder one was a tailoress and she did that kind of sewing, and her sister was around with the young children a good deal.

271: Now do you pretend to say that all the girls whom you have named were not there working for the prophet, and that you did not go out and work for wages on the outside?
No sir, indeed we did not for that was our house, and there was not one of us that was working there or any other place for regular wages.

272: You want the record to show that you and all these other girls were there working for the prophet, and that it was the home of all of you?
Well now I don’t remember how long the Lawrence girls stayed there. If I remember the Lawrence girls, well I could not tell you how long they were there, but their home was there when they was there.

273: The Lawrence girls were married too, to the prophet, were they not?
Yes sir.

274: And you were also married to him?
Yes sir.

275: You were there at the weddings?
No sir.

276: You were not?
No sir.

277: Why not?
Weddings were not performed publicly in those days.

278: Now you say that you were not present at these marriages, at the weddings?
Yes sir.

279: I mean of the Lawrence girls to the prophet?
No sir.

280: Yet you say of your own knowledge that you were married to him?
Yes sir.

281: How do you know that if you were not present?
I was present when I was married to him I think, it is highly probable that I was there.

282: I meant to ask you how it is that you could swear that the Lawrence girls were married to Joseph Smith when you were not present at the weddings, you are swearing remember to things within your own knowledge and I would like to know how that came to your knowledge if I did not see it?
Well I was associated with them there, and they told me so, and the prophet told me so himself.

283: And you and your sister were both married to him?
No sir, my sister was not.

284: Well you were?
Yes sir.

285: And the Partridge girls were also married to him?
Yes sir, and moreover Emma knew that they were married to him.

286: You mean Emma Smith, the wife of Joseph Smith?
Yes sir, she knew they were married to him.

287: Well I move to exclude that part of the answer as to what Emma Smith knew from the record on the ground that it is not responsive to the question. I did not ask you anything about what she knew. Just answer my questions simply, and we will get along much better. Now you were all married in 1842 to him?
I can’t say.

288: Well what is your best recollection about that?
I can’t say, for I haven’t any recollection about it, as I was not there when they were married to him. I don’t know anything about the time of their marriage beyond the fact that they were married, and I got that from Joseph and themselves, so I presume it was true.

289: Well you say you knew they were married?
Yes sir, I know it simply from their telling me so.

290: Did the prophet tell you so too?
He did.

291: Who was married to him first?
I can’t tell you.

292: Do you know who was the first plural wife he married?
No sir.

293: In what month and what day of the month were you married to him?
Well I have just told you what it was.

294: I don’t understand that you did?
Yes sir, I did.

295: I think you are mistaken?
No sir, I am not. I told you.

296: Well if you have it has escaped my attention, and the quickest way to settle this is to tell me again?
It was in May in 1843.

297: Oh yes, I recollect now, – it was the first day of May 1843 wasn’t it?
Yes sir, that is what I told you.

298: When was your sister married to him?
My sister Catherine?

299: Yes madam?
Never.

300: What?
Never?

301: Did you not say that your sister was married to him also?
No sir, on the contrary I said that she was not.

302: When was Emily D. P. Young married to him?
I don’t know.

303: Well about when was it?
I don’t know anything about their affairs. She has been here and has given her testimony I understand, and she is the one you ought to ask about that, for she knows more about it than I do, that is certain.

304: Your sister was there at the mansion as well as yourself when you was married?
Yes sir.

305: And she was present at the wedding?
No sir.

306: Why was she not present?
She knew nothing about it.

307: She knew nothing about it?
No sir.

308: Well who was present at the wedding ceremony?
I have just told you.

309: Who performed the ceremony?
I told you that as well.

310: What is that?
I just told you that. I said.

311: Well I don’t recollect that you did?
Well I did.

312: Well please state it again?
I have told you once plainly, and I decline to repeat over and over again what I have stated once. I am willing to tell you all I know about this, but I must decline to repeat it over and over again to you or to any body else.

313: Well I believe you will be kind enough to waive that and tell me who married you?
Well I told you it was Elder William Clayton.

314: William Clayton was the elder that married you?
Yes sir.

315: Now William Clayton and the prophet and yourself were the persons present at the performance of that ceremony?
I did not say so.

316: Was there any one else present?
Yes sir.

317: Who was it?
I have told you that too, already.

318: Well Mrs. Kimball I will tell you that it is our right to cross examine in the way that we see fir, and we propose to do it, so you might make up your mind to answer all the questions we ask you at once, no matter if we only ask them once or a dozen time, but I shall endeavor however not to ask you the same question twice if I can help it, unless I have a special object in doing so. Now I will ask you who was present besides William Clayton, the prophet and your self at the time you say you married the prophets.
I have told you.

319: Answer the question, if you know?
Eliza Partridge.

320: That was the eldest daughter of the bishop?
Yes sir.

321: And that was on the first day of May 1843?
Yes sir.

322: Now where did the ceremony take place, – was it in the temple or in the mansion?
It was in neither.

323: Well where was it?
It was in our old home.

324: In your old home that you had moved from?
Yes sir.

325: Who was living in your old home?
The family.

326: Whose family?
The prophets family.

326: Whose family?
The prophet’s family.

327: Oh, it was the prophet’s family?
Yes sir.

328: Was Emma present?
She was not.

329: She had consented to the marriage, of course?
She did not consent to my marriage.

330: Did she oppose it?
She did not know anything about it at all.

331: Then she did not know anything about your marriage to her husband?
No sir.

332: What room did you occupy the night after your marriage, – that is, the night of the first day of May 1843?
What room did I occupy?

333: Yes, you and the prophet?
Well, that is a matter I shall not answer.

334: You decline to answer it?
I do.

335: Did you occupy the same room with Joseph Smith on the night of the first day of May 1843?
I decline to answer that question.

336: Did you ever occupy the same room and the same bed with Joseph Smith at any time, particularly on the night of May first 1843?
I decline to answer the question, and there is no law that will permit you to do so, or uphold you in intruding into my private affairs.

337: Do you decline to answer the question I ask you on the ground that your answers might tend to criminate you?
No sir.

338: Then why do you decline to answer them?
Because I consider them insulting, sir.

339: You do?
Yes sir.

340: Your feelings have grown more delicate now than they were forty eight or nine years ago, – they grow more mellow and refined with age?
I don’t know about that, –

341: Your feelings were not so tender when in 1848 you married a man who at that time to your knowledge had four or five other women living with him as wives, according to your statement, – and imposed yourself upon his innocent wife, and deceived her, by joining in that kind of an alliance with her husband, – that was not insulting, but now when I ask you a question that I have a perfect right under the law to ask you you say it is insulting?
No sir, not in the light that we accepted it.

342: And it is not insulting at this late date after the man whom you have maligned is dead and cannot be to deny or refute your story for you to come up and tell this tale, which if true would forever dishonor his memory, – there is nothing dishonorable or insulting in that, – there is nothing dishonorable or insulting in your attempting to palm yourself off as the wife of a man who is dead, and never for a moment in his life did anything to countenance your pretentions?
Yes sir, he would speak if he was here, – he would speak in tones of thunder.

343: Well I would like to hear him speak it, for he was very careful never to do so in this life, – he was careful never to acknowledge you as his wife either in tones of thunder or any other kind of tones?
Well he would, – he taught that principle, and while you may scoff at us we yet believe the principle, and it is sacred with us.

344: Did he ever introduce you as his wife?
Yes sir.

345: To whom did he introduce you as his wife?
To the twelve apostles or some of them.

346: When did he do that?
Do what?

347: Introduce you as his wife to the twelve apostles?
I said it was to some of them.

348: Well when was it?
Well I can’t say, – it was not long though before he died. He did not live very long after that.

349: That was shortly before he died?
Yes sir.

350: Well I would like for you to mention one man that he introduced you to as his wife?
Heber C. Kimball

351: Is that all?
And Brigham Young.

352: Heber Kimball is dead?
Yes sir.

353: And so is Brigham Young?
Yes sir.

354: Well was there any more?
I don’t know.

355: Well there is quite a number of the apostles now living?
Well no, there is some of them, but not many.

356: William Smith was an apostle at that time wasn’t he?
Yes sir, I expect he was.

357: He was one of the first apostles in the church wasn’t he?
Yes sir.

358: He was made an apostle at Kirtland Ohio, wasn’t he?
Yes sir, I believe so.

359: You saw him frequently did you not?
Well I did occasionally.

360: Did the prophet ever introduce you to him as his wife?
I don’t think so. I don’t know, but I think not.

361: Did he ever introduce you to Hirum Smith as his wife?
Yes sir.

362: Hyrum Smith is dead too, is he not?
I should think he was.

363: Can you name a single solitary man, – either an apostle or any officer in the church, that is now living to whom you were introduced by Joseph Smith as his wife?
I cannot.

364: You cannot?
No sir.

365: There is not a single solitary individual now living, whether an apostle in the church at the time of Joseph Smith’s death, or any other officer in the church to whom the prophet introduced you as his wife?
No sir, I can’t do that for the reason that it was not made public.

366: You went to church with him as his wife?
I did not.

367: You appeared at his funeral as a mourner and as his wife?
Well I know I mourned his departure deeply.

368: You appeared as a mourner at the funeral?
I appeared as a member of the family.

369: As a mourner for him?
Yes sir.

370: You remember about the funeral?
Yes sir, for the funeral was at our house, – at the mansion.

371: It was at the mansion?
Well if was from the mansion. It started from there.

372: And you went along with Emma to the funeral?
I went along with the rest of the family.

373: Who went?
Those that lived there in that house.

374: Did you go with Joseph and Emma and Alexander?
No I went with Agnes.

375: What was she?
Don Carlos Smith’s widow.

376: I am asking you if you went with Emma Smith, the prophet’s wife?
I went with the children, with the family, and Agnes went along.

377: With whose family?
With Joseph Smith’s family that lived there in the house.

378: You went to the funeral?
Yes sir.

379: With Emma Smith and Alexander and Joseph and David?
Yes sir.

380: And Fred?
Yes sir.

381: And with Frederick too?
Yes sir.

382: Was that all?
Yes sir, and with my brothers too.

383: You swear positively to that?
Yes sir, of course I do.

384: You occupied the same seat with Emma and Joseph and David and Alexander?
Well I can’t say who I sat by, or anything about it, but I was there,

385: That is a circumstance that never happened but the once?
Well I hope not.

386: Where did the funeral take place?
At the mansion.

387: Who preached the sermon?
That is something I can’t tell you anything about.

388: Well was there any sermon preached?
I can’t tell you anything about that.

389: You know though that there was a funeral?
Yes sir.

390: And you were there?
Yes sir.

391: But you can’t tell me who preached the sermon?
No sir.

392: It was the funeral of your husband and you do not know anything about what occurred there?
Not much. You should remember the circumstances, and we were perfectly overwhelmed with what had occurred.

393: Overwhelmed with what?
With sorrow and grief at what had occurred.

394: You were not so overwhelmed but that you knew it was the funeral of your husband?
Yes sir, I know it was Joseph Smith that had been murdered in cold blood sir.

395: And you were not so overwhelmed but that you know whether there was a sermon preached or not, were you?
Well the fact is I remember very little of the service.

397: Was Emily Partridge present?
I can’t tell you. I don’t remember anything much about it whether she was there or not. I don’t remember about these things.

398: Was Elizabeth Partridge present?
I can’t tell you that either.

399: Do you remember anybody that was there?
I remember that the family was there.

400: Were either of the Lawrence girls there?
Yes sir, they lived in the house and of course they were there.

401: Well do you remember whether or not they were there?
I say I can’t remember anything about it but of course they were there as they belonged to the family, and the whole family was there.

402: Do you know where he was buried?
I do.

403: Where was he buried?
I decline to answer the question.

404: Do you decline to answer that question?
I do.

405: Do you decline to answer it because you don’t know or because you do know where he was buried?
It is because I do know and I will not tell you.

406: Have you at any time taken an obligation not to answer that question?
Well that is my business.

407: Who told you where he was buried?
I decline to answer that question.

408: Do you decline to answer that question about where
 

378: You went to the funeral?
Yes sir.

379: With Emma Smith and Alexander and Joseph and David?
Yes sir.

380: And Fred?
Yes sir.

381: And with Frederick too?
Yes sir.

382: Was that all?
Yes sir, and with my brothers too.

383: You swear positively to that?
Yes sir, of course I do.

384: You occupied the same seat witm Emma and Joseph and David and Alexander?
Well I can’t say who I sat by, or anything about it, but I was there, –

385: That is a circumstance that never happened but the once?
Well I hope not.

386: Where did the funeral take place?
At the mansion.

387: Who preached the sermon?
That is something I can’t tell you anything about.

388: Well was there any sermon preached?
I can’t tell you anything about that.

389: You know though that there was a funeral?
Yes sir.

390: And you were there?
Yes sir.

391: But you can’t tell who preached the sermon?
No sir.

392: It was the funeral of your husband and you do not know anything about what occurred there?
Not much. You should remember the circumstances, and we were perfectly overwhelmed with what had occurred.

393: Overwhelmed with what?
With sorrow and grief at what had occurred.

394: You were not so overwhelmed but that you knew it was the funeral of your husband?
Yes sir, I knew it was Joseph Smith that had been murdered in cold blood sir.

395: And you were not so overwhelmed but that you know whether there was a sermon preached or not, were you?
Well the fact is I remember very little of the service. 396 (This number, question, and answer are missing)

397: Was Emily Partridge present?
I can’t tell you. I don’t remember anything much about it whether she was there or not. I don’t remember about these things.

398: Was Elizabeth Partridge present?
I can’t tell you that either.

399: Do you remember anybody that was there?
I remember that the family was there.

400: Were either of the Lawrence girls there?
Yes sir, they lived in the house and of course they were there.

401: Well do you remember whether or not they were there?
I say I can’t remember anything about it but of course they were there as they belonged to the family, and the whole family was there.

402: Do you know where he was buried?
I do.

403: Where was he buried?
I decline to answer the question.

404: Do you decline to answer the question?
I do.

405: Do you decline to answer it because you don’t know or because you do know where he was buried?
It is because I do know and I will not tell you.

406: Have you at any time taken an obligation not to answer that question?
Well that is my business.

407: Who told you where he was buried?
I decline to answer that question.

408: Do you decline to answer that question about where he was buried?
Yes sir.

409: Why do you decline to answer these questions?
Well I have a reason.

410: What is the reason?
Because it has nothing to do with this case.

411: You set yourself up as a judge and jury, and pass on what is competent or relevant to the issues of this case?
Well I will not tell you where it is.

412: Then you decline to answer any question I may ask you about that?
I decline to answer any question on that subject.

413: You decline to answer any questions on that subject, – on the subject of where Joseph Smith is buried?
Yes sir.

414: For what reason?
Well because I don’t wish to do so.

415: You can’t tell even wo it was told you where he was buried? I am not asking you where he was buried but simply who told you where he was buried? Do you also decline to answer that question? I have allowed you to tell us who told you where he was buried, and you can’t even tell us who told you that?
Is there any need of my saying that anybody told me?

416: Well I would like to know if you can tell me that, I would like for you to do so if you can?
Well I decline to answer the question, because the circumstances are very trying, and you should not ask me questions like that?

417: You were so overwhelmed that you can’t tell me anything about that?
Well I am not going to tell you and that is all there is to it.

418: But you are willing to swear before God that you attended the funeral of Joseph Smith with Emma Smith and with Joseph Smith and Alexander and David?
All those that were in the house there, of course I attended with them.

419: You attended the funeral as Joseph Smith’s wife did you?
It was not known or acknowledged that I was his wife.

420: You say it was not known or acknowledged that you were his wife.
No sir, not known generally. Of course there was a few knew it but it was not generally known.

421: Then you did not appear there as is wife?
No sir, of course I did not.

422: Have you not said in this examination that you did appear there as his wife?
No sir.

423: If the record shows that you have so stated the fact to be, what have you to say?
Well it is a mistake for I did not say any such thing, or I did not intend to, for it was not generally known at all that I was his wife. It was kept a secret for prudential reasons.

424: Then you did not appear there as his wife?
No sir.

425: Well that is what I wanted to know long ago?
Of course it was not proclaimed publicly that i was his wife, and that is what I told you long ago.

426: Did Emily Partridge appear there as his wife?
Well that is a question you will have to ask her yourself. You will have to ask her these questions for I can’t answer them.

427: You can’t say as to that?
No sir, I don’t know anything at all about her affairs.

428: Did either of the Lawrence girls appear there as his wife?
 

429: What name did you go by all this time?
All of what time?

430: From the time that you married Joseph Smith up to the time of his death.
I went by my own name.

431: You went by the name of Lucy W. Walker?
Lucy Walker.

432: And the Lawrence girls went by their maiden names also?
Yes sir, for under the circumstances we could not go by his name there.

433: Why could you not go by his name if you were married to him?
Well, there was a reason for it.

434: Well, what was the reason?
Because the time had not come when we could do so.

435: What time?
The time when we could be acknowledged as his wives.

436: Was there any particular time fixed when you could go by his name?
Yes, sir.

437: Who fixed the time when you could and would be known as his wives?
Well, President Smith himself said that day would come.

438: Well, has that day ever come?
Yes, sir.

439: Well, when were you known as Lucy W. Smith?
It was here.

440: Where?
In the Valley here. In the Territory of Utah.

441: The time never cam then until you came out here to Salt Lake?
No, sir.

442: Who proclaimed the time?
The prophet himself.

443: Was it Brigham?
No, sir.

444: Well then, who was it?
The prophet Joseph Smith.

445: Where?
In Nauvoo.

446: Well what was it–what did he say?
He proclaimed repeatedly that we would go beyond the mountains, although his son has said that he did not.

447: Where did he make that declaration?
He made it publicly.

448: In his published works did he make that statement?
Yes, sir.

449: Is it printed anywhere?
Yes sir, and i can show it to you, too.

450: In what book or work is it printed?
Well, it don’t matter, for he did make that declaration, of that there is not any doubt.

451: Well, did he make it in a work printed in his lifetime?
He made the declaration.

452: I asked you if you could show it to me anywhere in anything that was printed during his lifetime?
Well, I think so.

453: What book will it be in?
It is there all right.

454: Is it in the Times and Seasons or in the Morning Star or any other publication or book printed during his life time?
It is in the Millenial Star I think.

455: Was that printed during his life time?
Well I think not. I don’t think it was.

456: When was it printed?
I don’t know when it was printed.

457: Do you know where it was printed?
I know it was there and is there too because I have it in my possession sir.

458: Do you know where the Millenial Star was printed?
Yes sir.

459: Where was it printed?
In Liverpool, and that was in England sir.

460: That is in England?
Yes sir.

461: And Joseph Smith lived in America?
Yes sir.

462: And never was in England?
I believe not sir. He has his agents there though.

463: How many children did you have by virtue of your marriage with Joseph Smith?
I decline to answer that question sir.

464: Did you have any?
I decline to answer the question.

465: Have you any children by Joseph Smith? Do you decline to answer that question too?
I decline to answer the question.

466: Why do you decline to answer it?
Well I think that is my business and none of yours. The principle by which we were married is an eternal principle, and will endure forever.

467: That is your judgement that you are giving expression to now?
No sir, I know it.

468: How do you know it?
Well it is sufficient that I know it.

469: Has the Lord ever told you?
Yes sir. I know it as well as I know that I exist.

470: Now is it not a fact that you were just sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity?
No sir, it was for time and all eternity.

471: Well did you raise a child by him?
I decline to answer the question.

472: Did you ever occupy the same bed with him?
I decline to answer the question.

473: You say you will not answer any of these questions.
I do, – not on that subject.

474: Did you ever see a child that you knew was Joseph Smith’s outside of David, Alexander, Frederick and Joseph?
I decline to answer that question.

475: Why do you decline to answer it?
Well it belongs to a secret part of my religion.

476: Is that something that you have taken an oath not to divulge?
I don’t consider that any man or any law could compel me to answer such questions.

477: And that is the reason you decline to answer these questions?
Yes sir, for I don’t think any one has a right to ask such questions with the expectation that I should answer them.

478: You believe now in polygamy just the same as you always did?
I do, more firmly than ever. I believe that it was the command of God and should be obeyed.

479: Who were you married to after you married Joseph Smith?
To Heber C. Kimball.

480: What time were you married to him?
In the latter part of 1845.

481: That was the time that you were married to Kimball.
Yes sir.

482: Were you married in Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

483: Will you give me the exact date when you were married to Heber C. Kimball?
I cannot. I don’t think I can do that.

484: Then you do not recollect the exact date?
No sir.

485: Do you recollect the month?
I do not.

486: What place were you married at?
I was married in Nauvoo.

487: What place in Nauvoo?
In the temple.

488: Who performed the ceremony?
President Young.

489: Was he president of the church then?
Yes sir.

490: You are positive of that?
Well we acknowledged him as the president.

491: Who did?
Those who were followers of the prophet acknowledged him, – that is, acknowledged President Brigham Young as the President of the church.

492: That was in 1845?
I think so. Yes sir I am quite positive it was in the latter part of 1845.

493: And you are just as positive of that as you are of any thing else you have testified to here?
Well let me see, – no it was in 1846, for it was in 1846 that we were married.

494: And so it was in 1846 that you were married to Heber C. Kimball?
Yes sir.

495: And it was in the temple there at Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

496: Was Kimball President then too?
Well I suppose he was president. It is very likely that he would be.

497: I asked you if Kimball was president of the church then?
No sir.

498: Well was Brigham Young the president of the church then, – that is at the time that you were married?
Well we acknowledged Brigham Young in our hearts feelings.

499: Was Kimball a counselor to the president then or was he a member of the twelve?
He was a member of the twelve then I think, but I don’t think they were re-organized then.

500: Was Brigham Young a member of the Twelve then?
Yes sir, I think he was the President of the Twelve then as he was before. That is the way I think it was.

501: Well if that is the case who was the president of the church?
Well no, I don’t think at that time that the re-organization or organization under the new condition of things after the prophet passed away and taken place, but we acknowledged Brigham Young as our leader.

502: You acknowledged him as your leader?
Yes sir.

503: Who did that?
The church did. After President Joseph Smith passed away, the church had to have a head or leader and it acknowledged President Brigham Young as its leader, but at the time I was married I don’t think the organization had been affected by which he was formally made our president.

504: Did you acknowledge Brigham Young as your leader, or did you acknowledge the Twelve as your leaders?
Well for a time the twelve a apostles were, but after wards they were organized into a Presidency and councellors.

505: Well did that organization take place during the time that you lived in Nauvoo?
Well I can’t tell you the time exactly. I can’t tell you the time for I don’t remember the date.

506: Don’t you remember that it was done at Winter quarters?
I don’t remember the time that was done, but I know that until the time of the organization into a Presidency and Councellors that the Twelve were looked to as the head of the church.

507: You were the wife of one of the apostles all the time?
Yes sir, from the time I married Mr. Kimball I was.

508: Well who did you marry before you married Kimball besides Smith?
Well that is a question. 509 (The question is missing)

510: Yes, madam, that is a question, and I expect you to answer it?
Well I decline to answer any such a question.

511: How many men did you marry before you married Kimball, besides Smith?
I decline to answer.

512: Do you decline to answer that question?
I do.

513: Why do you decline to answer it?
Well it is not likely that I married any one.

514: Well did you?
I did not.

515: How many wives did Kimball have at the time you married him, besides yourself?
Well I never asked him to find out.

516: How many did he have before his death, besides yourself?
I think you would have to go to the records for that.

517: Well do you know?
No sir.

518: You answer that you do not know how many wives Kimball had besides yourself after he married you, or at the time he married you, and before his death?
I don’t know.

519: Well do you know of any?
I only know about my own affairs, for that is what I attended to and did not mind other people’s affairs.

520: Do you know how many he had when he married you?
No sir.

521: Did you not even ask him whether he had more wives then you?
No sir, I did not.

522: You did not?
No sir.

523: Why did you not ask him that question?
I did not because I understood that principle.

524: You were just so anxious to get married that you did not care whether you married a man that had one wife or a dozen wives, – that was matter of so much, of so little importance to you in your anxiety to get married that you did not even ask the question?
That is what is the matter.

525: It did not make any difference to you whether he had one wife or a dozen, – is that what I understand you to say?
Yes sir.

526: That was the way it was?
Yes sir.

527: The principle was all you were working for?
Yes sir, for I knew it was a true principle.

528: There was not any love in the union between yourself and Kimball?
No sir.

529: Was there any courtship?
That is my business entirely.

530: Well answer the question? Was there any courtship between you and Kimball?
 

531: Answer the question, – was there any courtship between you and Kimball?
It was the principle of plural marriage that we were trying to an race if we had established it. That is what we were trying to establish, – a great and glorious and true principle, – and if we had established it it would have been for the benefit of the whole human race, and the race will say so yet.

532: That is your belief?
Yes sir, and the day will come when you will doff your hats to the plural wife system, must as you may sneer at it now.

533: You know that?
Yes sir, I do, for they have been a noble self-sacrifice.

534: Who have made a noble sacrifice of self?
The plural wives.

535: Well when I come to that belief I will apologize to you for what I have been saying.
Well you will need to, for if you live long enough you will do that sir. I am proud sir of my associations in that regard, – have noting to fear or be ashamed of either in this world or the world to come. The principle is sacred, as hold and as divine as God himself, and you will see the day when you will acknowledge it.

536: You know that also?
I do.

537: Well I very much fear that is a prediction that will never come to pass?
Well it will.

538: And that you will sear to also?
I know it will as well as I know I live.

539: Well then if that principle is as true and as holy as God himself, how is it that the church went back on it and said that the Lord did not command it at all?
Well the church will see the day when it will apologize for that sir.

540: Did you not consent to that manifesto with the rest of the church?
Yes sir, I did to President Woodruff.

541: You acknowledged it to President Woodruff?
Yes sir, much to my regret I did.

542: And are you going to acknowledge it again?
Not much. When the time comes for that principle to rule, it is going to rule, and that time will surely come.

543: When will that time be?
When the Lord comes to rule again.

544: Well that will be when you are dead, and that will not do you any good?
Well, I will go to him and I will know then as well as I do now that it is true.

545: Then it don’t make any difference whether it is now or in the hereafter?
No sir. It will be all right in eternity, of that I am sure.

546: You had children by Kimball?
Yes sir.

547: How many children did you have by Kimball?
I had nine, and he was a noble man if there ever was one stood on earth, and I am proud to know I bear his name.

548: You are as proud to bear his name as you are to know that you practiced polygamy?
Yes sir.

549: Well what is the name of the oldest child you had by Kimball?
John Heber Kimball.

550: That is the oldest one, – the oldest child you have?
Yes sir.

551: When was he born?
He was born in 1850.

552: Where?
Here.

553: He was born here in Salt Lake City in 1850?
Yes sir.

554: Now did your sister marry Heber C. Kimball also?
No sir.

555: Did the Lawrence girls also marry him?
No sir.

556: Neither your sister nor the Lawrence girls married Heber C. Kimball?
No sir.

557: Did the Partridge girls marry him?
No sir. Yes, I was mistaken in what I said for Sarah Lawrence did marry him.

558: She married Heber also?
Yes, sir.

559: Did she marry him before you did, or after you did?
I don’t know, I did not make any inquiries about that for it was nothing to me when she married him. That has nothing to do with me.

560: That has nothing to do with you?
No sir. You need not say anything about it for the life we lived was an honorable one, we have not lived a vile life, sir.

561: Well, I am not saying you did.
Well, you insinuate it.

562: I beg your pardon, madam, for while I may have my opinion on that matter, i have not insinuated anyting of the kind, and have not any intention of doing so.
Well, I judge from the remarks you made to one of my friends that that was your opinon, that we lived a vile lie, and I feel so insulted that I cannot help speaking as I do, for we have lived pure lives and have made great sacrifices, and have tried to live purely and faithfully obey the laws of the church and the commandments of God.

563: Now Mrs. Kimball, I am just trying to find out what the system is, and that is the reason I ask you these questions, and it is not because I feel curious to peer into something that you may think has nothing to do with this case, but to serve my clients as well as I know how. You must remember that we are attempting to get this matter before the Judge of the United States Circuit Court so that he will understand what this system is. You see, I am a young man and I can be pardoned if I want to know something about those things. Now you say that Joseph Smith taught you polygamy in 1842?
Now don’t go over all that again. I have told you the facts, and I don’t wish to be tired out telling it all over again to you.

564: Well, just answer my question, and it will be much better for you, and you will get away all the sooner, for I am resolved to get at the bottom of this thing, If possible, and I believe I shall. Now did you say that Joseph Smith taught you polygamy in 1842?
I did.

565: He taught you the principle of polygamy in 1842?
Yes, sir.

566: Now how early in 1842 was it that he taught you that?
I can’t tell you the date, nor even the month, but it was in 1842.

567: He taught you that in the mansion house where you were living at the time?
No sir, it was at my old home.

568: The home where you lived with your mother?
No sir, it was at the old home where he lived before the mansion house was built or finished.

569: He taught you that at the old home?
Yes, sir.

570: Was there anybody present when he taught you that?
Well now look here, that is my business, sir, and I do not propose to tell you that or to tell anybody else that. That is my business entirely and you have no right to pry into it.

571: I have not?
No sir, you have not.

572: Therefore, that is another question that you decline to answer?
I do.

573: Well, what did he say to you when he taught you the principle?
Well, that is my business. Suffice it to say that he taught me that principle as a sacred and holy principle that would endure forever.

573: Neither your sister nor the Lawrence girls married Heber C. Kimball?
No sir.

557: Did the Partridge girls marry him?
No sir. Yes, I was mistaken in what I said for Sarah Lawrence did marry him.

558: She married Heber also?
Yes sir.

559: Did she marry him before you did, or after you did?
I don’t know. I did not make an inquiries about that for it was nothing to me when she married him. That has nothing to do with me.

560: That has nothing to do with you?
No sir. You need not say anything about it for the life we lived was an honorable one. We have not lived a vile life sir.

561: Well I am not saying you did?
Well you insinuated it.

562: I beg your pardon madam, for while I may have my opinion on that matter, I have not insinuated anything of the kind, and have not any intention of doing so?
Well I judge from the remarks you make to one of my friends that that was your opinion, that we lived a vile life, and I feel so insulted that I cannot help speaking as I do, for we have lived pure lives and have made great sacrifices, and have tried to live purely and faithfully obey the laws of the church and the commandments of God.

563: Now Mrs. Kimball I am just trying to find out what the system is, and that is the reason I ask you these questions, and it is not because I feel curious to peer into something that you may think has nothing to do with this case, but to serve my clients as well as I know how. You must remember that we are attempting to get this matter before the Judge of the United States Circuit Court so that he will understand what this system is. You see I am a young man and I can be pardoned if I want to know something about these things. Now you say that Joseph Smith taught you polygamy in 1842?
Now don’t go over all that again. I have told you the facts, and I don’t wish to be tired out telling it all over again to you.

564: Well just answer my question, and it will be much better for you, and you will get away all the sooner, for I am resolved to get at the bottom of this thing, if possible, and I believe I shall. Now did you say that Joseph Smith taught you polygamy in 1842?
I did.

565: He taught you the principle of polygamy in 1842?
Yes sir.

566: Now how early in 1842 was it that he taught you that?
I can’t tell you the date, nor even the month, but it was in 1842.

567: He taught you that in the mansion house where you were living at the time?
No sir, it was at my old home.

568: The home where you lived with your mother?
No sir, it was at the old home where he lived before the mansion house was built or finished.

569: He taught you that at the old home?
Yes sir.

570: Was there any body present when he taught you that?
Well now look here, that is my business sir, and I do not propose to tell you that or to tell any body else that. That is my business entirely and you have no right to pry into it.

571: I have not?
No sir, you have not.

572: Therefore that is another question that you decline to answer?
I do.

573: Well what did he say to you when he taught you that principle?
Well that is my business. Suffice it to say that he taught me that principle as a sacred and holy principle that would endure forever.

574: And you believe that it will endure forever?
Yes sir, that is my belief.

575: Well what did he tell you?
That is my business.

576: Did he tell you that a man could have more wives then one?
Well he said that day was near.

577: That the day was neas when a man could have more wives than one?
Yes sir. He said that the principle would be established and that the time was near when it would be established.

578: And he married you that day that he told you that?
no sir, I did not say so.

579: Well how long afterward was it when he married you?
Well I have told you the day that he married me.

580: I know that but you have not told me that day that he told you that, and I want to find out how long it was after he told you that before he married you.
Well I cannot tell you.

581: Well what did he say to you when he taught you polygamy?
I shan’t say anything about it, for that is my business and not yours. 582 (Mistakenly listed as 682)

581: Well do you decline today to testify to anything only what you see fit to say?
I decline to tell you anything about that, for the reason that it is my business and not yours, and because you are asking these questions not for any useful purpose but simply for the purpose of worrying me.

583: That is merely an assumption of yours madam?
Well I think the facts prove it. This is all sacred to me, and for that reason I decline to tell anything about it.

584: Who called you here?
President Woodruff told me that I was wanted here, and when I came here I supposed all you wanted to know was that Joseph Smith had more wives than one.

585: Well that is not what we are specially interested in, – what he taught you is what we want to know?
Well what he taught me is what I will not tell you. I testified that I was his wife, and that is the truth, and I know that I am to be eternally his wife.

586: And you know you did not have any children by him?
Well now that is something that I did not tell you anything about at all. It is none of your business if we had twenty sons or children, and it is none of your business if we did not have any.

587: What did you consider Joseph Smith to be?
I considered him to be a man of God sir, – a great, good and holy man of God.

588: And yo consider the present Joseph Smith to be your son, by virtue of the fact that you married his father, don’t you?
I do not.

589: But you married his father?
Yes sir.

590: They why do you not consider him to be your son?
If he will acknowledge me as his mother, and acknowledge his error and believe as I do, I shall be happy to consider him as my son.

591: Well he would not believe as you do? Would he?
I believe the day will cone when he will, for I sincerely loved those boys and nothing would please me better than to see them remedy the error of their way.

592: Did he not tell you himself that you were not his mother?
He said his father had no more wives than his mother, and he knew at the time he said that, that he was telling a falsehood.

593: Did he not tell you that?
He did not, for we had no conversation on that subject.

594: Now how do you know he told a lie or falsehood, which is the same thing?
Because he knows better.

595: Did you ever hear him make a declaration to that effect that his father did not have more wives than one?
Yes sir.

596: Where?
In his lectures.

597: Well where was that?
In his lectures at Logan he said the question is not whether my father had more wives than one, but the question is, is it right. Now did he not give himself away there.

598: I don’t think so?
Well I do.
I don’t think so any way. I know he said that, – that is not hearsay, for I was there on the stand and spoke to him and heard him.

599: Well what did he say to you?
He said this “I am very glad to see you and I am not either afraid or ashamed to see you”. Now what does that imply?

600: Well in my opinion it implies just this, – that he was not afraid or ashamed to meet you or anybody else?
Well whatever it implies I hope he will yet repent and come back to us.

601: (Question is missing)
I knew it was right, and he had his doubts about it for he debated it in his own mind as is shown by his language. I knew it was right sir? Do you think I would have done that, – made that sacrifice and virtually given my life away if I had not known it was right?

602: Well was it a question of right or wrong with you?
It was.

603: Then why did you say Joseph Smith gave himself away when he said it was a question of right or wrong?
Well it proved to me, or at least satisfied my feelings that he knew that I was his father’s wife. That is what it proved to me sir, – that he knew I was his father’s wife.

604: That is the way you looked at it?
Yes sir.

605: Did he call on you?
He did.

606: How did he come to do that?
He called on me, for I told him I was very desirous of having a chat with him, but when he called I was not in.

607: You jumped to the conclusion that his father had more wives than one, and that he knew it from what he said?
Yes sir, I did. I knew that his father had more wives than one, – I knew that myself, and I believed he knew it also from what he said, – and I want to say right here now if you will allow me, –

608: Well wait a bit, – if I want anything from you I will call on you for it. Now Mrs. Kimball you say you cannot state a thing that the prophet said to you, when you say that he taught you polygamy?
I did not say so.

609: Well, you said that you would not?
Yes sir.

610: Why not?
Well it is something that does not belong to the world. It is something that the world has nothing to do with, and so I will not tell you.

611: Well it belonged to this world, for he told it to you in this world?
Well I will not say what it was.

612: Well I insist upon the witness being compelled to answer these questions? My patience is about exhausted with a witness who sets herself up as judge, jury court and all, and so I insist upon the rule being enforced which compels witnesses to answer competent questions.
 

613: Will you answer that question?
No sir.

614: Well I can’t stay here to see to this, but I would like to have you in court where they would put you you in jail for a year or two and see if you would not answer?
Well I would like to have you there too.

615: Well you can depend upon it if you were there you would get it. Now you say he taught that to you in 1842?
Yes sir.

616: You were a member of the woman’s relief society in Nauvoo in 1842 were you not?
I was not. (617 & 618 missing)

619: Were not any of the wives of Joseph Smith members of that society?
I presume they were but that has nothing to do with this question that I can see.

620: Please answer my question, Mrs. Kimball,-you are a woman and I have to treat you as I wish to do, with respect. this is a case where I think W am competent to judge of what is competent here and just what is necessary for me to ask you, and I assure you I am not asking you questions out of mere idle curiosity. If you wish to be treated respectfully answer the question I ask you, otherwise I will feel called upon to take steps to enforce my rights, and teach you what they are. your read the church papers at that time, did you not?
What time?

621: In 1842 you read the church papers, did you not,-the Times and Season?
Well I used to read them occasionally.

622: You have all of them now haven’t you,-a complete set of the Times and Season?
 

623: Do you recollect anything about the secret wife system of John C. Bennett in Nauvoo,-do you Mrs. Kimball?
 

624: What is you answer?
I know noting at all about it.

625: Do you recollect hearing anything about it while you were living there in Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

626: Then you did hear some thing about it?
Yes sir, I heard of his scandalous behavior.

627: You say “his scandalous behaviour”?
Yes sir, for it was scandalous from what I heard of it.

628: You were being taught the principles of polygamy at the same time were you not?
It was not that I think. I don’t think the principle of plural marriage had any thing to do with what he practiced. He was there in Nauvoo I know but I had nothing to do with him or his scandalous doings. I never took the trouble to read about his doings, but I believed he was a wicked man.

629: You believed he was a wicked man?
Yes sir.

630: For what reason?
Because he acted in a very corrupt manner as I understand it.

631: Was it not Mrs Kimball because he had more women than one, – is that not true Mrs. Kimball?
I can’t say, for I knew nothing about his affairs at all.

632: But you were being taught at the same time by Joseph Smith, that it was right?
Taught that what was right.

633: That a man could have more wives that one, – were you not taught at that very time that that was right?
I told you when I was taught that.

634: And you said it was in 1842?
Yes sir.

635: Now Mrs Kimball I want to read you something here that is published in the Times and Seasons on that very subject, – that is the doctrine of plural marriage or the rule regulating marriage in the church at that very time, and which is signed by Wilford Woodruff the present president of the church to which you belong, along with nine or ten other men, and by nineteen of the women in the church at that time, which was during the life of Joseph Smith. It is in the issue of the Times and Seasons dated October 1st 1842. You said you read the church papers sometimes so I want to read to you this communication, – “We, the undersigned members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and residents of the City of Nauvoo, persons of families, do hereby certify and declare that we know of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published from the book of doctrine and covenants, and we give this certificate to show that Dr. J. C. Bennett’s “secret wife system” is a creature of his own make, as we know of no such society in this place nor never did.”
 

636: Let the record show that this is the same book and paper which was identified by Wilford Woodruff while on the witness stand, and by Emily Young previously. Now that certificate is signed by S. Bennett, George Miller, Alpheus Cutler, Reynolds Cahoon, Wilson Law, W. Woodruff, N.K. Whitney, Albert Pettery, Elias Higbee, John Taylor, E. Robinson and Aaron Jackson”. Now let us take S. Bennett, – did you know him?
No sir.

637: George Miller, – did you know him in Nauvoo?
No sir.

638: Alpheus Cutler, – did you know him in Nauvoo?
I knew him in after years, but I did not know him in Nauvoo.

639: Did you not know that George Miller was one of the bishops there then?
I can’t say. He might have been. I don’t know that he was or was not.

640: Did you know Reynolds Cahoon and Wilson Law?
I know them after I left Nauvoo. I knew Reynolds Cahoon after I left there, but I knew Wilson Law there.

641: You knew Wilson Law in Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

642: Of course you knew Wilford Woodruff there?
Yes sir.

643: And Albert Pettey?
Yes sir.

644: Did you know Elias Higbee there, he was the party they called “Judge” Higbee there at that time?
Yes sir. I did now know him personally there, but I heard of him.

645: Did you know John Taylor there in Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

646: And Ebenezer Robinson?
I did.

647: And Aaron Johnson?
Yes sir.

648: Now all of these names appear to this certificate I have read to you?
Yes sir. If you say they do I do not doubt it.

649: You have heard the certificate I read to you?
Yes sir.

650: Did you ever see or read that certificate before?
Yes sir, I have heard of it, since that time I have heard of it.

651: You heard of it at the time did you not?
No sir but I have heard of it here.

652: You never heard of it until this trial began, is that it?
Well, I don’t recollect for sure whether I did or not.

653: Who told you of its existence since this trial began?
I heard of it from some of the folks here I heard since you came to Salt Lake that you had it.

654: Did Mr. Hall or President Woodruff tell you?
No sir.

655: Neither of them?
No sir.

656: Did Joseph F. Smith tell you?
No sir.

657: Well who did tell you?
I really don’t know, but there has been a number of people who have spoken to me about it.

658: Well now I want to read you another certificate signed by nineteen ladies, the names of most of whom you will recognize when I read them off to you.
 

659: I want the same statement to appear as having been made by myself as was made after the last objection in reference to the book that contains it, and the certificate itself, as was made by President Woodruff and Emily D.P. Partridge.
 

660: It is as follows, “We, the undersigned members of the ladies relief society, and married females, do certify and declare that we know of no system of marriage being practiced in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, save the one contained in the book of Doctrine and Covenants, and we give this certificate to the public to show that J.C. Bennett’s “secret wife system” is a disclosure of his own make. Now that is signed by the following ladies, “Emma Smith President, Elizebeth Ann Whitney Counselor, Sarah M. Cleveland Counselor, Eliza R. Snow Secretary, Mary C. Miller, Lois Cutler, Polly Z. Johnson, Abigail Works, Catherine Pettey, Sarah Higbee, Thirza Cahoon, Ann Hunter, Jane Law, Sophia R. Marks, Phebe Woodruff, Lenora Taylor, Sarah Hillman, Rosanna Marks, and Angeline Robinson.” Now that is signed first by Emma Smith, she was the wife of the prophet, was she not?
 
Yes sir.

661: And she was the president of the society too, wasn’t she?
Yes sir.

662: And Elizebeth Ann Whitney was the counselor to the president of the society was not she?
I presume so. I am not disputing it.

663: Well do you know whether she was or not?
No sir.

664: You knew her did you not?
Yes sir.

665: She was the wife of N.K. Whitney, the bishop of the church, was she not?
Yes sir.

666: And Sarah M. Cleveland she was another counselor to the president was she not?
Well I can’t say, I don’t know that I ever did know about these things. I remember her but I was not very well acquainted with her.

667: Well Eliza R. Snow, this says was the secretary to the society, – you knew her did you not?
Yes sir, I was acquainted with her, but I don’t know what office she held in the society.

668: Did you know Mary C. Miller also?
Yes sir.

669: And Lois Cutler?
Yes sir.

670: You knew her?
I knew her by sight but I wasn’t personally acquainted with her.

671: Did you know Ann Cutler?
Not personally.

672: What about her?
I knew her.

673: And Sophis R. Marks?
No sir, I did not know her. Well I will say I knew all of these ladies when I met them, but some of them I was not personally acquainted with.

674: Well what about Polly Z. Johnson? Did you know her?
No sir.

675: You did not know her?
No sir, I don’t remember her at all.

676: And Abigail Works?
I don’t remember her either but I knew the family.

677: And Catherine Pettey? What about her?
Well I knew her too.

678: And Sarah Higbee?
I knew her.

679: And Phebe Woodruff?
Yes sir.

680: You knew her?
Yes sir.

681: She was the wife of Wilford Woodruff, the present president of your church?
Yes sir.

682: What about Lenora Taylor?
I knew her.

683: She was the wife of President John Taylor, who used to be president of the church?
Yes sir.

684: Did you know Sarah Hillman?
No sir, I did not know her.

685: Did you know Rosanna Marks?
No sir. Well let me see, –

686: You knew Marks, the president of the stake there at Nauvoo?
Yes sir, I knew the family.

687: Rosanna was his wife as you understood it?
Yes sir, I think that was his wife.

688: And Angelina Robinson, – did you know her?
Yes sir.

689: She was the wife of Ebenezer Robinson wasn’t she?
Yes sir.

690: You knew nearly all of these ladies did you not?
Yes sir. I knew most all of them either personally or by sight.

691: These were all prominent women in the church and its work there at the time, so far as you knew them?
Yes sir.

692: That was in October 1842?
Yes sir.

693: Now was that certificate true in 1842?
I know nothing about it now.

694: Was the fact true as it is stated in the certificate, that there was no other system of marriage practised there at that time, any other than what is taught in the book of Doctrine and Covenants, – was that statement true or false at that time?
I don’t know, –

695: You don’t know anything about it?
No sir.

696: Then you don’t know whether the practice of polygamy was taught prior to that time or not?
I only knew about it in connection with my own affairs, and that was all that I knew about it.

697: Will you say that the time that Joseph Smith taught you this which you have refused to describe by the way, or tell what it was he taught you, – will you say that he taught you what you call the doctrine of polygamy before that time?
Before what time?

698: Before the time of the publication of these certificates, which was in October 1842?
Well I know it was in 1842 some time, but I can’t say the month it was in.

699: You can’t tell me the month?
No sir.

700: Now to refresh your recollection further I will read from the book identified by Wilford Woodruff as the Times and Seasons when he was on the witness stand yesterday?
 

701: I will read to you the same matters that I read to Wilford Woodruff on his cross examination, – “The saints of the last days have witnessed the outgoings and incomings of so many apostates that nothing but truth has any effect on them. In the present instance after the sham quotations of Sydney and his clique, from the bible, book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, to skulk off the dreadful splendor or spiritual wifery, which is brought into the account as graciously as as if the law of the land allowed a man a plurality of wives is fiendish, and like the rest of Sidney’s revelation, just because he wanted to go to Pittsburg and live. Woe to the man or men who will thus wilfully lie to injure an innocent people. The law of the land and the rules of the church do not allow one man to have more than one wife alive at once, but if any man’s wife die, he has a right to marry another, and to be sealed to both for eternity, to the living and the dead. There is no law of God or man against it. This is all the spiritual wife system that was ever tolerated in the church, and they know it.” Now that is from the Times and Seasons of the issues date Nov 15th 1844, and it is found on page seven hundred and fifteen?
 

702: This is the book that was identified yesterday by President Woodruff. Now I will ask you if you remember seeing that at the time it was published?
No sir.

703: Did you ever hear it read before?
Well I have heard of it, but I never read it myself, or heard it read by our people.

704: You knew it was published?
I did not know it.

705: Now that refers to the plural marriage system that you say was taught to you by Joseph Smith, – that I have read to you out of this book?
No sir.

706: Do you say that was not?
No sir.

707: Do you say that was not the doctrine of the church taught at that time as is claimed in this article I have read to you out of this cook, – that there was no other doctrine taught at that time, on the question of marriage, but what was contained in the book of doctrine and covenants? Do you say that the church had any other system besides this?
They had the system that was taught to me in the beginning, and I have never heard that it was changed?

708: You have never heard that it was changed?
No sir, not by those in authority.

709: Did you ever know the system that was taught to you to be held out in the church paper, as the doctrine of the church, at any time before the death of Joseph Smith?
No sir.

710: You never knew of that?
No sir, for it was not published as the doctrine of the church publicly.

711: That is the reason?
I don’t know what was the reason, but I know it was a secret and was not made public to the world.

712: Did you ever know of its being preached from the stand or the pulpit at any time prior to the death of Joseph Smith?
No sir, not that I recollect of and I am quite sure it was not.

713: Did you ever know of its being taught or preached either publicly from the stand or elsewhere, by any elder or other person in authority in the church, prior to the death of Joseph Smith?
Nave I not told you that it was not made public in Nauvoo.

714: Well, was it made public any where else before the death of Joseph Smith?
No sir.

715: Then the fact is that you never heard it preached either privately or publicly at any time before the death of Joseph Smith?
No sir that is not the fact.

716: Is that not what you stated?
No sir, I never said anything about privately at all. I did not say anything about that. What I said was that I never heard it preached publicly, – I did not say it was not taught privately.

717: It was taught privately then?
It was to me.

718: The question is, did you ever hear it preached privately or publicly to the church, – to the church, mind you, and not to yourself as an individual?
No sir, not to the church.

719: The only thing you say about it is that it was taught to you privately?
Yes sir.

720: And you never heard it preached to any number at a time?
No sir, when it was taught to me it was by myself.

721: You and he were alone when he taught it to you?
Yes sir.

722: And you will not tell what was said?
No sir, I don’t think it is necessary to tell what was said.

723: You give your conclusion that it was plural marriage that was taught you, and will not tell what was said there, so that the court may determine what it was that was taught you?
I don’t think it is necessary to tell anything about that at all, – that is something that is sacred to me, and I do not want the mocking and scoffing world to know what it was.

724: Well now you would tell what was said if you though it was necessary?
No sir.

725: Now you do not want to go on record as saying that at the time the church was publishing through its official organ, that there was not such a thing as plural marriage taught or practiced in the church at that same time you were being taught, and other members of the church were being taught that doctrine in secret, and you made no protest?
I said that I did not know anything about that. I know what I was taught by the prophet, but that that is published there I did not know anything about it sir at all.

726: You don’t know anything about that, or did not at that time?
No sir, not that I remember of now.

727: You never made any protests against the system?
No sir, I did not, for I knew that what I was taught was correct.

728: Did you make any protest against this system?
No sir, for it was not my place or my business to come out and protest against what did not concern me. It was not my place to do that, and then I knew what I hear was correct and proper, that is what was taught me was correct an proper and beyond that that I had no concern in what other people did. I always held what I heard in that way from the prophet a the most sacred thing on earth to me, and I kept it so as far as laid in my power.

729: Did you agree with Joseph Smith when he was teaching you this principle, that you would guard it as a secret?
I entered into no such an agreement. There was no such an arrangement.

730: Then why do you say that what he told you was sacred and not to be revealed?
I did not say that it was not to be revealed.

731: Then why do you refuse to reveal ti?
Well it is not my business not my place to go around and publish to scoffers what passed between the prophet and myself. He would have revealed it himself, had he lived, in his own good time, and then there could be no dispute about it, but he did not have the opportunity unfortunately.

732: Well he never got ready in this world to reveal it, and so that is the reason that I am trying to get it out of you?
Well all your efforts will be in vain, because you can’t get it out of me.

733: Did you not take an oath here this morning Mrs. Kimball to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Yes sir.

734: Then why don’t you answer these questions?
Well sir, I will tell everything except that which pertains to my private life, and that I will not tell fir it concerns no one but myself.

735: Then you took the oath with an unexpressed mental reservation to tell only what you pleased?
Well sir, I don’t consider that it is lawful for a woman to publish all her private affairs to the world.

736: You consider that ladies are privileged in that respect?
Yes sir.

737: Do you consider that the law of plural marriage is a private affair that the ladies are only interested in?
No sir, but I consider it as the word of God to me, and something that is to be kept sacred and faithfully obeyed.

738: Well do you consider that it is a private affair.
Well it is to me so far as it relates to me.

739: And that is your private affair?
Yes sir, for I have nothing to do with others.

740: Is there a private affair that this church out here does not have any thing to do with?
Well I should think there is.

741: Is there a private affair that the church as nothing to do with?
I don’t know anything about the church for I am speaking for myself.

742: You do not pretend to speak for the church?
No sir. I am just speaking for myself as an individual.

743: Was this teaching of plural marriage or polygamy to you, a private affair?
It was then.

744: It was taught to you very privately you say?
Yes sir.

745: And there was just yourself and Joseph Smith present when it was taught to you?
Yes sir.

746: And you decline now to tell what it was that Joseph Smith said to you?
I do not propose to do so.

747: Could you do it, if you proposed to do so?
I don’t think I could tell you just what he said to me in the exact language he used.

748: Will you say on your oath that you can’t tell what he taught you?
I will not.

749: Will you say that I can?
No sir, I will not say that I can or that I can not, – I will not say any thing about it.

750: Well about you tell me if you wanted to?
I don’t know whether I could or not.

751: Don’t you know that he never taught you anything different and contrary to the law on marriage as taught in the book of doctrine and covenants and published at the very time that you say he was teaching you this system of plural marriage? Don’t you know that?
 

752: What do you say to that?
I told you that he taught me that principle and that I received it and accepted it as a true principle.

753: Don’t you know that he never taught you any thing but what was published in the book of covenants at that time?
It was not published at that time.

754: What was not published at that time?
The revelation on plural marriage, and it was not in the book of doctrine and covenants.

755: Well when was it first published her in Utah?
 

756: When was it published here in Utah.
I don’t know that I could give you the date.

757: Did he teach you anything that was contrary to what was published in the book of doctrine and covenants at that time?
I do not remember sir.

758: You don’t remember anything about that?
No sir.

759: How many miles is it from here to Logan where you live?
Well if you are through I would like to be excused.

760: I am sorry to inform you that I am not through, but if you had answered all my questions without hesitation I have no doubt but that I would have have been through long ago? How many miles is it from here to Logan?
You can tell by the map.

761: Why can’t you tell? I would like to know else I would not ask you.
I have not heard how many miles it is, – if I have I have forgotten, but I presume you know.

762: Well as a matter of fact I don’t know whether it is one mile, twenty miles or a hundred miles. Will you tell me how many miles it is or about how many miles it is, or do you decline to say anything about that too. Do you know or will you say?
Well it is about, – I don’t know how far it is but it is about fifty miles I suppose.

763: You came without a subpoenae fifty miles to testify in this case, did you not?
No sir.

764: You did not?
No sir, I had a sudpoenae.

765: Will you let me see it?
I don’t think I have it with me.

766: Who was it sent by?
President Woodruff.

767: Now Mrs Woodruff, you recollect the statements of the members there at Nauvoo, both male and female, that I read to you from page seven hundred and fiftee in this book, about there being no such a practice tolerated in the church as plural marriage up to the fifteenth of October or first of November 1842?
Yes sir, but I don’t know anything about it I told you.

768: Now I want to read you another statement by the apostle John Taylor, made at the same time and in the same paper, and published the fifteenth of October 1844. John Taylor was an apostle at the time was he not?
Yes sir.

769: And he afterwards became the president of the church out here in Utah, did he not?
Yes sir.

770: I will read you this, – “for the communication of an old man of Israel, and the letter of Elder Addison Pratt from the Islands of the Pacific Ocean, we bespeak a hearty welcome. They are genuine.” What I read to you first about “the saints of the last days have witnessed the outgoings and incomings of so many imposters, etc.” that was the communication of an old man of Israel, and that which I have just read about bespeaking a hearty welcome, is from one of John Taylor’s editorial notices, published in the Times and Seasons, published on November 15th 1844? Now after thinking over that do you say that the church of Jesus Chrits of Latter Day Saints, prior to the 15th of November 1844 taught and practiced polygamy to the church? Taught polygamy to the church and practised it?
 

771: Go on and answer the question?
Well I don’t know any thing about it sir. I don’t know that they had authority to publish that or that they did not have any such authority. That is something that I don’t know anything about at all.

772: Well I am not asking you if they had any authority.
Well you need not ask me that, for I don’t know anything about it at all.

773: I am asking you this Mrs. Kimball, – do you say in the face of the statements made by John Taylor on the fifteenth day of November 1844, that no such a doctrine was taught to the church, – in the face of his statement that no such a doctrine was taught to the church, do you say it was taught?
 

774: Do you say it was taught to the church in the face of his statement that it was not taught?
Well, fi I was to answer according to my personal knowledge I would say nothing about it. I would say I mean that I know nothing about it. I know what was taught to me, but I said I did not know of its having been taught to the church as a church, but I know it was taught to me.

775: Then you don’t know whether it was taught or not?
No sir, no further than my own experience goes.

776: Now if Emily Dow Partridge Young, that you have referred to as being present at your marriage with or to Joseph Smith, – ?
She was not there.

777: Did you not say she was there?
No sir.

778: Did you not say she was there, – are you going to deny that?
Yes sir, for I did not say she was there. It was her sister that was there.

779: Was it Elizabeth?
It was Eliza.

780: Where is she now?
Dead.

781: When did she die?
Several years ago.

782: She is dead too?
Yes sir.

783: Are there any other of the Partridge girls in this place that you know of, – any of the girls except Emily? What is the name of the one that lived at Ogden?
I don’t know.

784: There is another Partridge girl living here, is there not?
I don’t know of any. I don’t know any thing about that, but I don’t think there is.

785: Well there was Emily and Eliza, and there was another one, – what was her name?
There was one named Caroline, but I think she died many years ago.

786: Was she the youngest of the family?
I never was acquainted with the family to any extent, except with Emily and Eliza.

787: Well Emily told me there was one living in Ogden?
Well if there was one there, – I don’t know anything about her whereabouts.

788: Then you say that there is not a single party living now that was witness to your marriage to Joseph Smith, do you?
No sir.

789: Have you a certificate of your marriage with Joseph Smith?
I think so. I have one.

790: You have one?
I think so, and it don’t matter whether I have or not. I positively know I was married.

791: Well my question is, – have you a certificate?
No sir, I do not believe I have.

792: Then you haven’t a certificate?
No sir.

793: Then you never had one?
No sir, not a certificate. I said I did but I was mistaken for I did not know what you meant. I never had a certificate, but I had a record of the marriage.

794: What record was made of the marriage at the time?
Well it was a record of the facts in the case.

795: Was there any record make of the marriage at the time?
Yes sir.

796: You are sure of that?
Yes sir.

797: Where, – in what book was the record of the marriage made?
I don’t know.

798: By whom was the record made?
By the clerk.

799: Who was the clerk at that time?
William Clayton was the clerk and he made the record.

800: And he made the record?
Yes sir.

801: Was it made in the church records?
I can’t say anything about where he placed it, but there was a record made, – that I know.

802: Then you are willing to say that he made a record of it somewhere?
Well there was a record made, and that is sufficient, I think. I don’t know anything about where it was made.

803: Did you see the record of the marriage that was made?
I did. I read it.

804: When did you read it?
Well I read it after we came to Winter Quarters. It was at Winter Quarters that I saw the records and I saw the record of that there. I looked over the documents of the church there, and I saw it.

805: What book was it in?
It was in a journal.

806: Was it in 1847 or 1848 that you came to Winter Quar- ters?
It was in 1847.

807: What kind of journal was it in, – that you read an account of the wedding?
It was a journal that he kept to keep the records of the church in.

808: Was it in one of Clayton’s private journals?
It was in one that he kept the record of such transac- tions.

809: It was a journal in which he kept a record of those secret marriages?
yes sir, that was the kind of a journal it was in.

810: Well was it a church journal or a private one of his own?
I can’t say.

811: How did you happen to read it?
Well I knew it was in existence, and I went asked the privilege of reading it, and the privilege was given me and I done so.

812: Then they has a journal record of these marriage?
They did. At any rate I saw mine there.

813: Did you see any body else’s there?
I saw mine there.

814: Please answer the question, – did you see the record of any body else’s marriage to Joseph Smith there?
I did not look for others, but I saw mine there

815: They you know that yours was in there?
Yes sir I do.

816: But you don’t know whether any body else’s was there or not?
No sir, I did not look for any body else’s but mine, and I know it was there, for I saw it

817: “I move to exclude all the evidence of this wit- ness Lucy W. Kimball regarding her alleged marriage to Joseph Smith for the reason that it is immaterial irrelevant and incompetent, and not the best evidence, as the witness not the best evidence, and for the further reason that the witness has refused and still refuses to answer questions that are asked her that are competent and material to the issue in this case.
Well I have answered every question that I can conscientiously answer, and I know that I was married to Joseph Smith, and that there was a record of it made.

818: It was upon some record in the possession of the church, made by the secretary or some officer of the church, and that is the best evidence Mrs. Kimball?
Well William Clayton was the secretary, and he was President Smith’s private secretary, and he made it, I suppose.

819: And we object further and move to strike out the testimony of the witness because she stated that she was subpoenaed by Wilford Woodruff who is the president of the church to which she at present belongs?
Well I don’t know anything much about that record for I have not seen it for some time, If I did I would not have nay objection to telling you about it but I haven’t seen it since that time.

820: Well you said Mrs. Kimball, in your direct examination that the practice of polygamy was in accordance with a direct command of God? Did you not make that statement?
Yes sir.

821: How do you know it was?
Well I received it as such.

822: Well was it a direct command of God ?
I received it as such I say.

823: Well was it a direct command of God to you?
It was.

824: You swear now that it was a direct command of the Almighty to you?
Yes sir.

825: When did you receive that revelation?
Well it was before I was married.

826: Through whom did you receive it?
The prophet.

827: What prophet?
The prophet Joseph Smith. I received it through the prophet Joseph Smith, believing him to be a prophet of God.

827: You received it through the prophet?
Yes sir.

828: Then you do not mean to say that the Lord revealed this system to you?
He did or I should never have accepted it.

829: Did the Lord tell you in a revelation that polygamy was right and you were at liberty to practice it?
He delivered it through the prophet Joseph, I said and I accepted it and acted upon it because I believed it was right and a sacred principle. I believed so then and I do now.

830: Did the Lord tell you that personally?
Well that was my, –

831: Or did Joseph Smith tell you?
Well he told me it was a divine revelation.

852: Who told you that?
The prophet did.

853: Then the Lord himself never told you anything about it, – he never communicated it to you personally as a divine revelation?
No sir.

854: And therefore, of your own knowledge you don’t know that it is a divine revelation?
I do. I am just as well satisfied of it now as though I had heard his voice proclaiming it.

835: You are just as well satisfied of the truth of that as you are of anything else you have testified to here today, and are just as positive about it?
Yes sir, and I should never have accepted it if I had not been satisfied that it was right.

836: Do you recollect when you first saw the published revelation on polygamy, – do you recollect when you first saw it?
The revelation that was published?

837: Yes madam, – do you recollect when you saw it first, that is, the first time it was published in printed form?
I recollect seeing it of course, but I could not give you the date, sir. 838 (written as 858)

837: Were you editor of the “Woman’s Exponent” published here in Utah?
No sir.

839: Were you ever connected with the editorial department of that publication?
No sir. 840 (written as 848)

839: You recollect that there was such a publication published here in Utah?
Yes sir, but I was not connected with it at all. It published here.

841: Whos is the editor of it?
Mrs Wills.

842: You knew her did you not?
Yes sir.

843: You gave her an article for publication, did you not, containing your history?
Yes sir. I gave her an article did you say?

844: Yes madam?
No sir, I never did.

845: Your biography?
No sir.

846: You never have?
No sir, I never have.

847: Or about what you knew about polygamy?
No sir.

848: You did not do that either?
No sir.

849: Well then what she published about you was not true?
Well if she published anything about me at all I presume it was facts. I don’t know what she published about me, but I do knot that I never requested her to publish anything about me.

850: Well did you not write your biography for publication?
I did not. I gave her a few facts. I gave it to the editor of the Logan Journal, and I went there to do it by request.

851: Well what did you give them?
Just a few plain facts. 852 (This one is missing)

853: Is that what you did for the historical record also?
I did.

854: You did not write the article yourself?
I wrote the article for the Logan Journal myself.

855: But you did not write the one for the historical record?
Well it amounts to the same thing. It is the same language or the same thing.

856: But you did not write it?
No sir, I just made the statement to him, and he wrote it down as I stated it. He wrote it according to my dictation.

857: Then the statement in the historical record is a true one?
It is sir.

858: You state in that that Emma Smith saw you married don’t you?
Oh no sir.

859: But don’t you state in that that she saw you through the day?
No sir, for she knew nothing about it at all. You can get the record and read it, for it states nothing but the plain facts.

860: Did you not state in that that Emma Smith saw you rooming with Joseph Smith, her husband?
Well you had better get the record and see what it states. If you get it and read it you will understand it better.

861: Well please answer the question. Did you not say in that that Emma Smith saw you rooming with Joseph Smith?
The book itself is the best evidence of what I said.

862: Did you receive your endowments in Kirtland?
Well that is my business.

863: That is your business?
It is sir.

864: Well answer the question?
That is something that I will not tell you, for it is our sacred business, that is our sacred ordinance and I will not tell you anything about it.

865: Well I will not ask you anything about them, that is, about the character of the endowments, but I will ask you again if you received your endowments in Nauvoo before you left there?
I don’t think I ought to be asked that question.

866: You can certainly answer that question, for that don’t five away anything?
Well I did.

867: You received your endowments then in Nauvoo?
I did.

868: In what year did you receive them?
It was in 1846.

869: You never received them before that?
No sir.

870: Why did you not receive them before that?
Well they were not administered before that.

871: They were not administered before that?
They were not administered to me before that. Of course there was different times and dates that members of the church received them, but I did not received mine until then.

872: Were they administered to anybody to anybody before 1846?
Yes sir.

873: You said that you did not receive your endowments before 1846. Was it because they were not administered until then?
No sir, they were administered before that time to some, but I did not receive mine until then.

874: Were they administered to anybody before the temple was completed?
Yes sir, well it was before they were, before it was completed, and the President Joseph Smith taught that principle.

875: How do you know? Did he teach it to you?
Well I heard it with my ears.

876: That he was teaching that principle himself before the temple was completed, and before 1846?
Yes sir.

877: Did you hear it from Joseph Smith?
Yes sir.

878: What time?
I could not tell you. Well he didn’t.

879: Did you take your endowments under him?
No sir, I am sorry to say I did not.

880: Do you know of anybody who did take their endowments under him?
Yes sir.

881: Who were they?
President Young, President Kimball, and President Taylor and President Richards.

882: You say that they did, now how do you know that
 

861: Well please answer the question? Did you not say in that that Emma Smith saw you rooming with Joseph Smith?
The book itself is the best evidence of what I said.

862: Did you receive your endowments in Kirtland?
Well that is my business.

863: That is your business?
It is sir.

864: Well answer the question?
That is something that I will not tell you, for it is our sacred business, that is our sacred ordinance and I will not tell you anything about it.

865: Well I will not ask you anything about them, that is, about the character of the endowments, but I will ask you again if you received your endowments in Nauvoo before you left there?
I don’t think I ought to be asked that question.

866: You can certainly that question, for that don’t give away anything?
Well I did.

867: You received your endowments then in Nauvoo?
I did.

868: In what year did you receive them?
It was in 1846.

869: You never received them before that?
No sir.

870: Why did you not receive them before that?
Well they were not administered before that.

871: They were not administered before that?
They were not administered to me before that. Of course there was different times and dates that members of the church received them, but I did not receive mine until them.

872: Where they administered to anybody to any body before 1846?
Yes sir.

873: You said that you did not receive your endowments before 1846. Was it before they were not administered until then?
No sir, they were administered before that time to some, but I did not receive mine until then.

874: Were they administered to anybody before the temple was completed?
Yes sir, well it was before they were, before it was completed, and the President Joseph Smith taught the principle.

875: How do you know? Did he teach it to you?
Well I heard it with my ears.

876: That he was teaching that principle himself before the temple was completed, and before 1846?
Yes sir.

877: Did you hear it from Joseph Smtih?
Yes sir.

878: What time?
I could not tell you. Well, he didn’t .

879: Did you take your endowments under him?
No sir, I am sorry to say I did not.

880: Do you know of anybody who did take their endowments under him.
Yes sir.

881: Who were they?
President Young, President Kimball, and President Taylor and President Richards.

882: You say that they did, now how do you know that they did?
Well I don’t know that they did. I understand that they did but I did not see them.

883: Well how do you know that they did. If you did not see them take the endowments how do you know they did?
Well I say I don’t know that they did. There is many a thing in this life we have to accept as the truth although we never see it, and that is one of the things that I accept, although I do not absolutely know it of my own knowledge.

884: Well do you of your own knowledge know of anyone who took the endowments at the hands of Joseph Smith or during his lifetime?
Well I have no doubt that there was, for I heard it from the lips of the prophet himself, – that that principle was a correct one.

885: When you took your endowments in the temple at Nauvoo, did they have anyone there representing Adam and Eve and Satan and Jehovah?
Well sir, I cannot tell you.

886: Do you mean to say that you cannot or will not?
Well sir, I will not tell you anything about it, for these are things that are too sacred to be talked about in this manner, and so I won’t tell you.

887: Were the endowments given publicly then?
Well they are public now, -that is, there is no secret about the fact of their being given, but it was not made public then. It was a secret rite that was performed then.

888: I hand you now an exhibit that has been marked here as Exhibit “D” (Def’s) and ask you to look at the first five or six pages, and say if that is the ceremony delineated there, that you took when you went through with your endowments at Nauvoo in the endowment house?
That i decline to answer sir. That is I suppose from apostate, and they are our most bitter foes.

889: Then you recognize it as the endowments you took in the endowment house?
I have nothing to say.

890: Do you recognize it as the ceremony that was gone through with there?
I decline to answer, for I have no right sir, to expose these things.

891: Was the ceremony in the endowment that you took anything like that in this book?
Well sir, you will have to find it out from some other source besides me, for I can’t tell you.

892: Do you say there was not any such thing as that in the endowment at Nauvoo?
Well sir, I decline to answer your question, because these things are sacred with us.

893: Well do you decline to say that this is the ceremony that was taken or gone through with there in Nauvoo?
I do not say whether it was or was not.

894: Well what do you say about it?
I have nothing to say one way or the other about it, sir.

894: You have nothing to say about it?
Nothing to say at all.

895: What do you say about the cuts and pictures there having representations of the emblems that were used?
I have nothing to say. If you choose to accept that as the emblems it will answer your purpose perhaps as well as anything else, but I have nothing to say.

896: Well do you say they were used there in Nauvoo?
I decline to to answer the questions.

897: Now don’t you say they were not used?
I say nothing whatever about it.

898: Do you recognize anu of these as similar to the ones you used there?
I will not say.

899: Will you answer the question?
No sir.

900: Then you decline to answer that question too?
Yes sir, I decline to answer any question in regard to it. It is nothing that has anything to do with this case, and it is something that we hold sacred and is not to be talked about.

901: Then you decline to say whether or not they resemble these here in this book?
You can accept these here if you choose, – I have no objection I am sure.

902: Well as U do not want to take any endowments I will not accept them.
Well you will see the day that you will wish you had them. These endowments are not for individuals or for this church alone, – they are for the whole world if the world will only accept them and receive them.

903: For the rest of mankind as well as for the members of your church?
Yes sir if the world will accept them they are free to all who will take them.

904: Well if that is the case, – if they are open and free to the world if it will accept them, why not tell me what they are so that I may know whether I wasnt to accept them or not?
Because you have not come in at the door, – you have no faith and have not obeyed the gospel, and are not entitled to receive them.

905: How do you know I haven’t obeyed the gospel?
Well if you have I am very greatly mistaken.

906: The fact is you don’t know anything about it, whether I have or not, – you don’t know a thing on earth about it?
 

907: Well that is all Mrs Kimball, – No I have another question to ask you. In taking the endowments at Nauvoo did they anoint the bodies of the parties taking the endowments all over?
I decline to answer your question sir, in regard to that matter. I decline positively to answer any question whatever on that subject.

908: Were you baptized a second time when you came to Utah?
Well I decline to answer that question.

909: Why do you refuse to answer it?
Well that is my affair/

910: Is it?
Yes sir.

911: You were baptized in Nauvoo you said, and now I want to know if you were baptized a second time when you came to Utah?
Well I decline to answer it.

912: Answer the question if you know, for it don’t make any difference at all whether you were or not?
Well it was considered necessary to be re-baptized when we came to the mountains, and we chose to do so.

913: Who taught you that it was necessary?
 
He was our teacher.

914: Well the principal officers in the church, did they not teach it? Brigham Young and the rest, such as John Taylor and Kimball, – your husband Heber C. Kimball did he not teach it?
Yes sir, they believed in the principle of baptism of course.

915: And taught it did they not?
Certainly they did, for they believed and they generally taught what they believed if it was the doctrine of the church.

916: Did they teach you that it was necessary to be re-baptized when you came to Salt Lake City?
 

917: Did they Mrs. Kimball?
Well they taught that those who chose to be re-baptized could be, and I was one of them that chose to be re-baptized, but there was nothing compulsory about it.

918: Well did Brigham Young and John Taylor and Heber C Kimball teach that it was necessary?
Well I suppose that I have told you all the facts that I know. I don’t see that it makes any difference that they taught.

919: Well did they?
They taught that we might be baptized if we saw fit.

920: Then what minister baptized you the first time you were baptized?
 

921: What minister baptized you the first time?
Where?

922: In New York I mean? If you recollect state who it was?
Well his name was Palmer.

923: Was he an elder in the church?
H was, else he would not have authority to baptize.

924: Who baptized you after you came to Salt Lake, – who baptized you here for yourself the first time?
I don’t know, I am sure.

925: Was it Brigham Young or Heber C. Kimball or John Taylor?
No sir, it was not any of them. I was one of the elders – I don’t recollect what his name was.

926: He was an elder in the church out here wasn’t he?
Who?

927: The one who baptized you out here?
Well of course he was. He couldn’t have baptized me if he was not.

928: Now did you not secede from the original church when you were baptized out here?
 

929: Answer the question? What is it?
 

930: When you were baptized out here did you not secede from the original church?
No sir.

931: You were not?
No sir.

932: Why not?
Because I did not accept any of the principles they counseled out here without knowing they were true. I knet for myself it was true and correct.

933: Now did you not know when you were directed to be baptized out here, that the church out here was only a branch, and that you were leaving the original?
No sir.

934: How do you nkow that?
Well sir, we have proof positive that ours was not a branch, but was the original church. We had proof positive that ours was the church.

935: You knew that they did not all come west didn’t you?
Well I knew that all came who desired to come, and some who did not come out at the time that we did, came afterwards.

936: But you knew that the great majority of the church never did come west did you not?
Well I knew that a great many of them did come west, but there was a great many seceded from the church.

937: Well did not the most of them secede, – the majority
No sir.

938: The church numbered about one hundred and fifty thousand at the time of the death of Joseph Smith did it not?
I don’t recollect sir.

939: Well about that number, did it not? Don’t you know that that was published by Joseph Smith himself?
Well I can’t say, for I don’t remember all that was published.

940: You just remember certain things and certain other things you cannot remember?
Yes sir, that is it.

941: Now don’t you remember that there was less than forty thousand of the membership of the church at the time of the death of Joseph Smith, who ever came west to Utah?
Well I know that all came who had faith in the gospel as it was taught by Joseph Smith. I know that.

942: And you swear to that?
Yes sir, I know that they could come if they wanted to do so, but a great many seceded from them, – that is, seceded from the church, and did not come, but there was nothing to prevent their doing so if they wanted to.

943: That is, you say that all came who had any faith in the polygamous revelation?
Well no, I don’t say that, for at the time of the death of the prophet the church in general knew nothing about the revelation. It was only a few who knew of that principle at that time.

944: Then at the time you came west, the church in general knew nothing about this polygamous revelation?
No sir.

945: Why not?
Well the church did not know any thing much about it as a general thing, fot it was not published. It was not made public at that time.

946: If it had, – if they had, they would not have come west at all would they?
Well I think that all who had faith in the revelation given by Joseph Smith the prophet and seer would have come west if they could.

947: But they did not know anything about it you say?
Well I say the main body of the church did not.

948: Was it not published to the church here in Salt Lake City for the first time?
Yes sir, the first time it was publicly announced to the church was here I think.

949: Were you present?
Yes sir.

950: Then you heard the statement made by Brigham Young to the effect that he was the only man on earth that knew anything about that revelation being in existence?
No sir.

951: You did not hear that statement?
No sir, I didn’t hear any such a statement.

952: You were present when he presented the revelation for adoption to the church?
I don’t remember that I was.

953: You were at the conference in 1852 were you not?
I can’t say whether I was or not.

954: You don’t know whether you were there or not?
No sir.

955: Well what is your best recollection about it?
I might have been and I might not.

956: You knew Brigham Young, – you were well acquainted with him?
Yes sir. Of course I did.

957: You were the wife of one of his counselors?
Yes sir, I was, but you must recollect that he was not obliged to tell me everything that was said and done at the conferences.

958: Well you would be likely to go to all the conferences would you not?
Not to all of them I suppose. I would go just when I felt like it.

959: You had a place there in the Tabernacle for a seat did you not? You had a seat there for yourself when you went to the tabneracle?
 

960: Please answer the question?
Well it is immaterial whether I had a seat or not. I had a seat when I saw fit to go, and that is sufficient.

961: Did not the conference held in August 1852 vote on that revelation?
I believe they did.

962: Were you there?
I believe I did sir.

963: And you voted on that revelation?
I believe I did sir. 964 (Written as 963)

963: Well did you?
I certainly did sir.

965: Do you pretend to say that in 1852 you raised your hand in support of that revelation and voted to make it a law in the church?
Well you will have to find the laws of the church, the records of the church before you will find out about a great many of these things.

966: Then you raised your hand to make that revelation a part of the law of the church?
You will have to refer to the records to find that out.

967: Well did you vote there?
I certainly did if there was a call for the vote.

968: And you have been sustaining the preaching and practice of it since 1852?
Yes sir.
I have sir, for it has been a part of my faith.

969: Openly, – both publicly and privately?
Yes sir.

970: From that time to the present?
No sir, from that time up to the time of the manifesto.

971: Have you been sealed to any one either publicly or privately since the time you were sealed or married to Heber C. Kimball?
Well I will not answer that.

972: You will not answer that either?
No sir, and I don’t know what makes you ask me these questions.

973: Well I just want to know how many times you have been married, that is all?
Well you will not find that out from me, because I consider that is nobody’s business but my own, and so I will not tell you any thing about it, but I wouldn’t be apt to marry again with a large family of children like I have.

974: Then it was the contract when you married Kimball that you would be his wife for time?
Yes sir.

975: And for time only?
Yes sir.

976: And the contract on Kimball’s part was that he would take care of you for all time, and cleave only unto you, and none else?
No sir, we did not have any thing like that in ours.

977: You did not?
No sir.

978: Was it that he would take care of you during life, and in the resurrection he would surrender you, together with all the posterity that might be raised, to Joseph Smith?
 

979: Was that the agreement?
Yes sir.

980: That is what you call marrying by proxy?
Yes sir, and the bible sustains us in that position, and men have been crushed who have refused to do such things.

981: That was the kind of an arrangement that you had with Kimball?
Yes sir.

982: You did not have any children while you were sealed to Joseph Smith?
I decline to answer your question?

983: But you raised nine children when you were sealed to Kimball by proxy?
Yes sir.

984: And those children you consider Joseph Smith’s children?
Well I suppose they will be all right in the resurrection, – in eternity, – but I don’t trouble myself about that.

985: Were they called Smith or Kimball?
 

986: That is the law of the church is it not, that where you are married by proxy, the children go by the name of the man to whom you were sealed for eternity?
 

987: Now did Heber C. Kimball’s first wife give her consent when you were married to him?
She accepted the principle and believed it was true.

988: Did she take your name and place it in Heber’s when you were married?
No sir, but she consented t his taking other wives, because she believed it was right.

989: That is all. Re-direct examination be Mr. Cabell,-
 

990: You stated in your cross examination-so called-that you had been subpoenaed here by President Woodruff?
Yes sir.

991: Now do you mean that he had written to you to come here, or telegraphed to you to come her or what do you mean?
Yes sir, he telegraphed for me to come.

992: That was the way communicated with you?
Yes sir, he said that I was needed here in Salt Lake City, and I answered it of course and come. What is the difference between that and a subpoena?

993: Well you said it was a subpoena, and a subpoena is something that is issued out of the court?
Well he telegraphed me yesterday to come here.