28 – John H. Thomas

1: Your name is what?
John H. Thomas.

2: What is your age Mr. Thomas?
I am sixty nine going on seventy.

3: You are in your seventieth year then?
Yes sir, I was sixty-nine the 10th day of last December.

4: Where do you reside Mr. Thomas?
I reside here in Independence?

5: In Independence, Missouri?
Yes sir.

6: How long have you resided in Independence Missouri?
I moved here last fall was a year ago, – that is I built and was here all the fall.

7: Did you ever live here at any prior time?
No sir.

8: You never lived here before this time?
No sir, for I was afraid to come here to live.

9: Where did you live in 1834?
In ’34?

10: Yes sir?
I lived in the state of Mississippi.

11: When did you leave the state of Mississippi?
I came from North Carolina to Mississippi.

12: Well I don’t care about that, – ?
I came from Mississippi up to Hancock County at Nauvoo in Illinois in the spring of 1845.

13: That was the first time you came to Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

14: How long did you remain there?
I remained there until the spring of 1846 at the time of the breaking up there.

15: What did you do then?
Well we all left Nauvoo at the time of the breaking up there.

16: Were you a member of the church of Latter Day Saints at that time?
Yes sir.

17: When did you become a member of the church of Latter Day Saints?
I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in 1842 in Mississippi.

18: Well where did you go in 1846?
In 1846 I went from Nauvoo in a pioneer company to open a road across the state of Iowa. At that time there was no settlement west of Nauvoo only for about fifty miles, and that was called Richard son’s Point was the last settlement there in the State of Iowa.

19: What was the occasion of that?
Of what? I don’t know what you mean.

20: What was the occasion or cause of your leaving Nauvoo?
Well on account of mobocracy.

21: And what was the occasion of your opening this road?
Well we were drove out.

22: Well what was the occasion of your opening this road?
For the emigrants going west, – Brigham Young and his host.

23: Was it for their especial benefits?
Yes sir.

24: And you were one of the company you say that went out to open this road across the state of Iora?
Yes sir, I was one of the band of pioneers, there was a company of one hundred able bodied men chosen. They were all young men and able bodied, and I was one of them, and they were sent out to open this road across Iowa for the emigrants on their emigration to the west. I was married then, but I was young.

25: What were you to do?
We were to go across the state and open road, and throw bridges across all the stream, that needed it across the state, and especially to establish a ferry across the Missouri river into what was called winter quarters eight miles above Omaha, now where Omaha now stands, for there was no Omaha there at that time, it was the Omaha nation then.

26: The Omaha nation of the Indians?
Yes sir.

27: What was known as winter questers at that time was about eight miles north of where Omaha now is?
Yes sir.

28: Well where did you next go?
Well I went from winter quarters in the spring of 1847, after the spring conference there in 1847 I left winter quarters and went from there to St. Joe.

29: Where?
I went to St. Joseph, Missouri.

30: What was the occasion of your going to St. Joseph?
Well I went down there to make a living for myself for I had about run out at that time.

31: Well was that the only reason you had for leaving winter quarters?
No sir.

32: Well go on and state all the reasons you had for leaving winter quarters?
That was one reason why I left winter quarters but perhaps it was not the main reason. I left winter quarters because I was satisfied in my own mind that everything was not as it should be.

33: Well what was your reason, just state your reason for leaving winter quarters at the time you did and not your conclusions as to what you saw, just state what was your reason?
Well sir I was satisfied that the twelve or what was there of them, Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, and Richards and the rest of the twelve that were there, had forsaken the original platform that we stood on, that is the doctrine that is contained in the Bible the Book of Mormon and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, they forsook the doctrine taught in these books and treated them as not worth the ashes of a rye straw, and did not consider them to be as good as a last years almanac.

34: What was the substitute they established for them, if any thing?
The substitute was to obey the council of the twelve in all things.

35: Was the council of the twelve considered supreme?
Yes sir, I went there to winter quarters with them but I saw how things were going on, and I got away as soon as I could, for I was to well posted, to follow them any further. I found out then for the first time that what I heard was true and what they were doing, but the same things was talked of for the first time I heard it there in Nauvoo in the spring of 1845.

36: What was that talked of?
Of polygamy being practiced secretly amongst some of them, and I never found it out to be a fact until I got to winter quarters in 1846 and 1847, and I found it out then to be a fact. I had heard of it before, but that was the first time I found it out to be a fact beyond doubt.

37: Now did you have any difficulty in getting away from there?
 
Well not particularily. I would if I had undertaken to go away on my own hook, but the scheme I worked got me out of winter quarters without any special difficulty.

38: Well how did you get away from winter quarters?
Well I was very intimate with Brigham Young, and he claimed authority over the ferry that we had made there. I mean the ferry that we pioneers had build there the time that we were sent out from Nauvoo to build these roads that I spoke of, and to establish this ferry over the Missouri river. Well when we came to the river and crossed it to winter quarters, Brigham Young then claimed jurisdiction over this ferry, and he would not allow any one to cross the river back on the Iowa side without a permit from him, or without his knowledge. Everybody had to have a permit or his permission to cross the river. He said we could apostatise all we had a mind to, but the property that was once in the church never could apostatise so he would keep that. Well as I said being intimately acquainted with him, and being good friends. I went to him and told him I wanted to go down in Missouri, – or down into Egypt as we called it to St Joseph, for I was a carpenter and wages were good there, and I could make a good living, and I had run out of money and wanted a permit to go over the river on the ferry and go down to St Joseph. I made that request of Brigham Young, and after I was through he ordered Judd Grant his secretary, to make it out for me.

39: who was this man?
He was Judd Grant, and he was Brigham Young’s secretary at that time, and did all his writing for him. I knew both him and Brigham Young right well, and in fact I was well acquainted with all the twelve that were there, and indeed I was in a good many of their counsels and confidences, and that is how I came to get a little more intimate with Brigham Young than the generality of the people did, and had an understanding of what was going on a good deal better than many did that were there.

40: Well now was it because of your financial condition, or was it or was it because of the actions of the church that you left winter quarters as you did?
Well I was going away any way. I had made up my mind to leave any way. I was going across the river some way or another, for I had made up my mind to leave any away, and run the risk but I staid until after the spring conference.

41: When was that conference held?
It was on the 6th of April same time that we have our conferences now at the present time. The spring conferences have always been held at the same time I believe. Well at that conference the main question at issue appeared to be that none of Joseph’s family was along. At that time we understood and believed as we do today, that Joseph should be the successor of his father. We understood that would be the case, and Brigham had made of his attempt to get any of them to accompany him a failure. He had offered inducements, – all that could be offered, and they would not go.

42: Who would not go?
Joseph’s family, – none of them.

43: Why?
Well because they had no confidence in Brigham Young and another thing was that there was nothing to indicate that there was any need of going to California, for they were suppose then to be going to California, and in the spring conference the old elders in the church were finding a good deal of fault, for they all believed universally that through Joseph and his posterity was promised in the Doctrine and Covenants, had the authority to rule in power, and would remain in the church as its head until the coming of Christ as is set forth in the Doctrine and Covenants., – as God had promised unto Abraham, so had he promised unto Josepk, that upon him and the head of his posterity should the power rest to lead the church. “In thee and thy seed shall the kindred be blessed”. Well as I stated there was a great many of the minstry of the church who were dissatisfied and gave expression to their dissatisfaction, and in that conference Brigham Young made the statement, and Heber C. Kimball and Dr Richards and the rest of the twelve that were in winter quarters were there, that they did not want any thing more she stated it there and they had talked it over, – for it had got noised abroad there and back in Illinois that the family was there, – and he said that he might just as well draw a knife and cur the boys throat, as to be talking of such a thing, for it was known in Illinois that that promise was made, –

44: What promise do you mean?
The promise to exalt him to the head of the church, – Brigham said we might as well draw a knife and cut the boys throat, – referring to young Joseph Smith, – as to let it get abroad that he was to the be the head of the Church. He said that if that knowledge got abroad in Illinois that the promise was made, and the saints looked to such a thing being fulfilled, that they would put an end to the family.

45: What family?
Joseph’s family. He said not to talk of such a thing or even think of it, for if the people back there in Illinois thought that the saints expected or looked forward to the fulfillment of the matter they would put an end to the entire family, and so he said to publicly talk of such a thing would belike taking a knife and cutting their throats.

46: Well now are you stating this from what you know personally, – what you heard?
Well sir, it is from what I heard personally for it was in the general conference that was held there in the spring in April at Winter quarters. Brigham Yong got up at the Conference and made the statement himself personally that no man could stand in Joseph’s place, for he said he had seen him ordained and set apart to fill his fathers place, and that that place belonged to him by right, – and God would take care of him and bring him forward at the right time, – there was no trouble about that at all.
I have state just what I know personally myself, and what I have stated is not hearsay. Hundred of others were at the same time and heard just what I have stated and a great many of them are living to day.

47: Well what were you going to say?
I was going to say that when I got permission to cross the river that just suited me so I struck out for St Joseph, I made up my mind then that I would go to St Joseph, Missouri, and I did go as soon as I could get ready to start, and it did not take me very long to start either for I was anxious to get away from the place.

48: How long did you live there at S Joseph?
I lived there from the spring of 1847 until 1853.

49: Where did you go then?
In the spring of 1853 about thirty-five or forty of us all moved up in Iowa together.

50: Now you say “thirty-five or forty of us”, what do you mean by that?
I mean that in 1853 I moved back up into Iowa.

51: Well what do you mean by “us”?
Old Latter Day Saints that went from Winter Quarters and from places in Iowa down there to St Joseph. They came from western Iowa down there to St Joseph about the same time I did.

52: Did you maintain or have nay organization in St Joseph?
No sir.

53: Why not?
Well there was several reasons why we did not do it. We were a little afraid to do that for there was a good many bitter enemies of the Latter Day Saints there at the start. We Held our meetings regularly after we had been there a while, and in time showed the people that we were honorable and were not afraid to work for our living, and in that way gained many friend there. We began by holding our meetings at private houses at first, – For example we would have a meeting say at my house, and then at an other mans house, and so on. Brother Hall, now a Bishops agent in Council Bluffs was one with me. He is alive, but the most of them are now dead. We held our meetings every Sunday almost, – first at one house and then at another, – kind of secret meetings amongst ourselves they were.

54: Then you had no public place of worship at that time?
No sir.

55: To what point in Iowa did you go?
When we left St Joseph we went to Council Bluffs.

56: What season of the year was it you went there?
We went early in the spring and rented land there and made crops that year and in the fall we moved up over sixty miles above Council Bluffs.

57: Did the whole thirty five of you got in a body?
Yes sir, for St Joseph we went in a body, and the most of us went in a body from Council Bluffs and settled in what is now Montana County.

58: Did you have a public place of worship at any of these points?
Yes sir.

59: Where was the first one?
We had it in Council bluffs, or in the neighborhood around there. We held our meetings and read the books and gave our views about “Old Mormonism”, as people called it.

60: What did you know, if any thing, at that time, about the Mormons intending to occupy lands here in Jackson County or here at Independence?
Well there was a good many in St Joseph, – some pretty influential men too, who had lived there in this vicinity. There was Middleton and Riley, wealthy merchants who bought most all their goods in St Louis, and they came through here often going backwards and forwards, when they went through by land, and they got intimately acquainted with us, for they were very fine men, but did not belong to the church, – they did not belong to any church, – and they thought a good deal of the Later day Saints there in St Joseph, for they had dealings with us and liked our way of doing business, and so they were a quite friendly towards us and they advised us not to let the people there in St Joseph know we were Latter Day Saints.

61: Well that is not an answer to my question, – my question is what did the people know about the disposition of the people here towards the Mormons, – I mean the people here at Independence?
Well they knew a great deal about it, – by hearsay of course.

62: Well what was it?
This man Middleton I have spoken of who traveled through this country on his way to St Louis and returning, – and who talked a great deal with the people here I suppose, I asked him what he thought about the people here I suppose, I asked him what he thought about the people down here, and he thought it would not be safe for a Latter Day Saints to come down here, and let the fact be known that he was a Latter Day Saint.

63: Who was Middleton?
Middleton & Riley, – these merchants I have spoken of.

64: Where did he live?
In St Joseph, Missouri.

65: What was his religious fair, if he had any, and you know?
He didn’t have any. He belonged to no church, – neither one of them belonged to a church.

66: Did you know anything about any possessions of the Mormons here at that time?
No sir, not of my knowledge. I had no knowledge of my own about that, for I was not here at the time they were here you know.

67: You did not know they owned any property here at that time?
No sir, I did not know that they owned any property here at that time, but I knew that they had owned property here at one time, for I had met with a great many of them that had here, and who had owned property here, at one time.

68: Well did you know that this part of the country any particular attraction for the Mormons?
Yes sir.

69: Well what was it?
Well the prediction was made in a revelation as is found recorded in our standard books, that it would eventually be a center stake or gathering point for all the Latter Day Saints. That revelation was in our books, and we believed it would eventually be a center place of gathering.

70: now it is spoken of as a center place, – a center place because other places are called “stakes”?
Yes sir.

71: It is called a center place, – and it is understood by your people to be a center place?
Yes sir.

72: Now tell us please, what yo understand by a center place,
Well, it was a center place because other places are called to be stakes you know. This This was to be the center stake of Zion, and there would be other stakes.

73: Do I understand you to say that it was supposed to be main and principle headquarters of the church?
Yes sir. We believe it will eventually be, and all Latter Day Saints have always held to that belief, and hold it so yet. Wherever they are any where in the world they believe that. Where ever you will find a Latter Day Saint you will find that he holds to that belief.

74: What do they expect from holding that position?
Well they expect in the fulfillment of the prophecy of God, that he is going to gather his people together in the latter days before the coming of Christ, who is coming to gather his people and making a covenant with him in who commandments shall be worthy of the reward that he metes out to they who.keep his commandments and obey his words,- they shall be gathered together , and this is appointed as the gathering place and central stake of Zion at which they shall gather.

75: Well what is to happen while that is coming about?
We look for a second coming of Christ, -a personal coming of Christ.

76: Is that a part of the faith of all your church?
Yes sir, all that I have ever met with yet, have been instructed in that belief.

77: Well now if that was true, why is it that the gathering of the people at this place has been postponed to such a late date?
Well it was on account of their neighbors getting uneasy, -getting jealous, seeing so many of the Latter Day Saints coming in here at Independence, and as most of the latter Day Saints that came here were eastern men and women, and they were well educated people and their neighbors got jealous of them, for they were prospering wherever they were, –

78: Well now hold on, for you are speaking about something that you don’t know personally and that is improper?
Well sir, while I wasn’t here, I know the most of them that were here.

79: You were not here yourself?
No sir.

80: Then you cannot speak of anything of your personal knoeledge based upon personal observation?
No sir.

81: Then of course anything you say is based upon your general knowledge?
Yes sir, my general knowledge, and from the publication of books and papers and such things, and from conversations I had with many of the Saints that were here.

82: Well you may go on and tell why the coming of the Latter Day Saints to this place has been postponed to this late day?
Well one of the causes is that their elevations show that they did not keep the commandments to begin with, -they did not keep them as a body of people.

83: You say “they”, -whom do you mean by “they”?
The Latter Day Saints.

84: Well which branch of them?
There wasn’t but one branch of them at that time.

85: What time do you refer to?
The time the Latter Day Saints were here.

86: There was but one branch of them at that time?
Yes sir, there was but one branch of them at that time for that was shortly after the church was organized, and a great many of them came directly from Kirtland, Ohio here, and there was a great many of them of course came from other places. There was a great many of them here at that time, but they had to leave, an very few, if any, of them have come back since.

87: You mean of the ones that were here in the thirties?
Yes sir.

88: Well go on and state why they did not come back sooner?
Well it was because of the influence or prejudice of the people against them generally, -the prejudice I might say, and the vicious spirit that was manifested. They had to leave on that account, and they dare not come back here to live, for there was not safety for them.

89: Well is it true, or is it not true that they did fear a repetition of the outrages that were or had been perpetrated on them at an earlier date?
Yes sir, they had fears of that of course, and I don’t think from the knowledge of what happened here while they commandments shall be worthy of the reward that he metes out to they who keep his commandments and obey his words, -they shall be gathered together, and this is appointed as the gathering place and central stake of Zion at which they shall gather.

75: Well what is to happen while that is coming about?
We look for a second coming of Christ,-a personal coming of Christ.

76: Is that a part of the faith of all your church?
Yes sir, all that I have ever met with yet, have been instructed in that belief.

77: Well now if that was true, why is it that the gathering of the people at this place has been postponed to such a late date?
Well it was on account of their neighbors uneasy, -getting jealous, seeing so many of the Latter Day Saints coming in here at Independence, and as most of the Latter Day Saints that came here were eastern men and women. and they were well educated people and their neighbors got jealous of them, for they were prospering wherever they were.-

78: Well now hold on, for you are speaking about something that you don’t know personally and that is improper?
Well sir, while I wasn’t here, I know the most of them that were here.

79: You were not here yourself?
No sir.

80: Then you cannot speak of anything of your personal knoeledge based on personal observation?
No sir.

81: Then of course anything you say is based upon your general knowledge?
Yes sir, my general knowledge, and from the publication of books and papers and such things, and from conversations I had with many of ht Saints that were here.

82: Well you may go on and tell why the coming of the Latter Day Saints to this place has been postponed to this late day?
Well one of the causes is that their evelations show that they did not keep the commandments to begin with, -they did not keep them as a body of people.

83: You say “they”, – whom do you mean by “they”?
The Latter Day Saints.

84: Well which branch of them?
There wasn’t but one branch of them at that time.

85: What time do you refer to?
The time the Latter Day Saint were here.

86: There was but one branch of them at that time?
Yes sir, there was but one branch of them at that time for that was shortly after the church was organized, and a great many of them came directly from Kirtland, Ohio here, and there was a great many of them of course that came from other places. There was a great many of them here at that time, but they had to leave, and very few, if any, of them have come back since.

87: You mean of the ones that were here in the thirties?
Yes sir.

88: Well go on and state why they did not come back sooner?
Well it was because of the influence or prejudice of the people against them generally, -the prejudice I might say, and the vicious spirit that was manifested. They had to leave on that account, and they dare not come back here to live, for there was no safety for them.

89: Well it is true, or is it not true that they did fear a repetition of the outrages that were or had been perpetrated on them at an earlier date?
Yes sir, they had fears of that of course, and I don’t think from the knowledge of what happened here while they were here that they were to be blamed for being fearful of coming back. They had fears of that violence of course and I do not think from the knowledge that I have got from people that lived here in that time, – and I have mixed with them a good deal and got pretty well posted in regard to what went on there at that time, – II don’t think from what I can learn that it would have been safe for them at any time until a few years back, – to have gathered here, – not since the rebellion, –

90: That was in 1865 was it not?
Yes sir.

91: It was?
Yes sir.

92: And it was not safe for them to be here at that time?
No sir I did not think so. I know I came very near trading my farm for a place here in 1866, and the man had to leave here to save his life, and I was afraid to trade with him.

93: You were afraid?
Yes sir, I was afraid to trade with him.

94: Why were you afraid?
Well I was afraid to trade with him, for if I had traded with him I would have had to move here, on it and I was afraid to do that.

95: The man had to leave here you say?
Yes sir.
Yes sir.

97: Who was that man?
Well I don’t know his name now. I don’t remember his name.

98: What did he leave here for?
Well I don’t know but I suppose it was because everything was cut up here in the war of the rebellion and he had to leave because he got into trouble with some of the factions here, for I understand they were a rough set around here at that time, or just after it. He was not a Latter Day Saint at all, and that had nothing to do with it.

99: Then, why do you mention this occurence as an evidence of hospitality against the Latter Day Saints?
I just mention it to show the temper of the people, and show what they would do if a religious denomination should attempt to come back here again, for at that time they were in the same mood or vicious disposition they had been before.

100: Then you do not want to create the impression that he left here in 1868 because he was a Latter Day Saint, – that this man was forced to leave this country because of that fact?
Oh no, no, for he was not a Latter Day Saint at all. I would have traded with him pretty quick, but I was afraid to come here, and I aint much of a coward wither I don’t think.

101: You are not?
No sir, but I don’t rush into danger if I can avoid it.

102: I believe you stated that you were a North Carolinan originally?
Yes sir, I was born and raised partly in North Carolina in Richmond County, and Rockingham was our county seat, and I moved from there to Mississippi in the fall of 1833.

103: Who, – what age were you then?
I was then elven years old.

104: And from Mississippi you said you came to Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

105: What year was that?
In 1845.

106: In 1845?
Yes sir.

107: What year did you join the Mormons there at Nauvoo?
I joined, I came into the church in Mississippi in 1842.

108: In what year did you become a member of their church in Nauvoo?
Just as soon as I got there in 1845.

109: How did you join the church at Nauvoo?
I handed in my let- ter of removal and joined the church there at Nauvoo on that? There was nearly two-hundred of us in Knoxubie County, Mississippi, – that is not the name of the county, but for sort we say “Knoxubie”.

110: Did any other Mormons come with you from Mississippi to Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

111: How many?
There was thirty-five or forty of us. Our teams took us to Memphis Tennessee, and then we took the boat from there to Nauvoo.

112: To whom did you apply for admission into the church at that time?
No not to any body.

113: How were you admitted into the church?
We just went to the clerk and handed in our letter, and that was all there was to it.

114: You handed in a letter to the clerk?
Yes sir.

115: At what time was it if you remember that you handed in your letter to the clerk?
It was the spring of 1845.

116: What time in the spring if you remember?
The first of April.

117: I used the term “Mormons” in a question back there, which the Notary has been kind enough to read to me. Now I used that term for the sake of convenience as you will understand, and not as a matter of reproach you understand, and because I wanted to give you and opportunity of stating just what you called yourself, -that is the one s that came up with you to Nauvoo at that time?
Well that was the name.

118: That was the name?
Yes sir.

119: Now is that the full and completed name by which you were known at the time?
Well no, -well yes, s far s the members were concerned it was. It was as far as the members were concerned ” Latter Day Saints”. It was called the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”. That was the name the church went by then as it is to-day, only now it is called “The Re-organized church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”. That was the title of the church when I came to Nauvoo, but the members of the church amongst themselves called themselves the “Latter Day Saints”, or “the Saints”.

120: Where are the certificates that you filed there at that time with the clerk?
Where are they?

121: Yes sir, if you know?
I don’t know.

122: Have you ever seen them since?
No sir, for i never had any occasion to call for them.

123: Who was the clerk at that time if you remember?
I don’t now or remember who was the clerk at that time. He was a stranger to me, and I don’t know his name.

124: Do you know what became of him?
No sir, not generally, but I think he went to Utah though.

125: To refresh your recollection or memory, I will ask you if his name was Williard Richards?
I could not say whether he was or not, that is he wasn’t in the office when I was there I don’t think, but he might have been.

126: On what occasion after you arrived there, was the first time you attended any public gathering of the people or meeting of the church, I refer not to the time after you arrived at Nauvoo from Mississippi, the first occasion after you arrived?
It was in April, in the spring, the 6th of April in Nauvoo.

127: That was the first time you attended any public meeting or gathering of the church?
Yes sir, it was at the conference and got there two days before the conference which is held in April.

128: What sort of a meeting was that?
It was what they called a General Conference.

129: Do you remember who presided over that conference?
Yes sir.

130: Who was it?
Brigham Young presided over that conference.

131: Was there a large attendance of the members of the church?
Yes sir, pretty large.

132: There was a large attendance of the membership of the church?
Yes sir, pretty large.

133: And Brigham Young presided you say over that conference?
Yes sir.

134: At what place was the conference held?
It was held in Nauvoo, in the city of Nauvoo on what was called the “Temple block”, near the temple there in a grove, for there was no house big enough to hold the people that were there, and so it had to be held out doors.

135: You have seen large crowds of people together in your life, have you not?
Yes sir.

136: About how many people would you suppose were there participating in the conference?
Well I couldn’t tell you anything about that.

137: You do not know anything about the number of persons that were present then?
No sir.

138: How long did you remain at Nauvoo before you left there for any considerable time?
Well we got there in April, I think the 3rd day of April in 1845, and in 1846 why I left Nauvoo what I have already told you.

139: No sir I beg your pardon, you did not answer that question to me for I have not ask you the question before this time, – Now you left Nauvoo in 1846?
Yes sir.

140: In what time in 1846 did you leave Nauvoo?
In the spring. I think it was in February 1846 that we left Nauvoo on that business.

141: I believe you stated on your examination in chief that you went some where on that occasion. Now where was it you went?
We went across the state to open up the road for the emigrants going west.

142: And when did you say that was?
That was in 1846, – in the spring of 1846 was when we started.

143: Did you go along?
No sir.

144: Whom did you go with?
There was quite a large company of young able bodied men went.

145: Well how many was there in the company?
There was one hundred of us.

146: Who sent you?
Well the church there at Nauvoo sent us, – the authorities there of the church at Nauvoo sent us out to do that work so that the emigrants on their way west could find a road prepared for them

147: You say the authorities of the church sent you?
Yes sir

148: Who were the authorities of the church?
Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, and all the twelve you might say without mentioning all their names. In the council held as I stated the other day, and if I did not so state I intended to do so, – Well in the council that was held in the spring after I got there at Nauvoo first it was decided to leave Nauvoo, – the time was set to leave in the spring, just as early as we could upon the road and brigde the streams all across the state of Iowa.

149: Well there is a question I want to ask you and that is in regard to the question as to whether or not you got your endowments before you left Nauvoo.
Well I went through what they called an endowment there in the temple in the winter of 1847.

150: In the winter of what year, did you say, 1847?
No that was a mistake, – I meant the winter of, – let me see, –

151: Was it 1845?
Yes sir the winter of 1845, and it was in the winter of 1845 after I got there or the first part of 1846, – it was the first winter after I got there any way. We left Nauvoo on that trip as I stated the other day I think in February, – for we crossed the river on ice and crossed over into Iowa, and stayed there camped until in the spring, – in March, the first of March when we started on that journey.

152: How long were you engaged in making that trip across the state of Iowa from Nauvoo to what you call winter quarters?
Well I don’t know just the length of time we were on that trip.

153: Well what time did you arrive at what you call or designate as “winter quarters”?
Well it was along about the first of July or the last part of June, – that is when some of use were making preparations to return after our families. That is one reason I know it was about that time, but I can’t give the exact time and there was a government officer there calling for vlounteers to go to Mexico, and one of my brothers and my cousins, or one of them, volunteered to go, and they raised five-hundred men in that way there, and on the fourth of July they raised the United States. flag right below where Council Bluffs is now on a high knob that was there.

154: Who did that?
United States military officers they were there and did that. I forget the officers name that did that. There were several of them there, and I think Kearney was one of them.

155: Well did you at that time on your return, go on to Omaha?
Omaha was not in existence the, but I went on to winter quarters.

156: Well did you not state that that was where Omaha is now located?
No sir, I did not state it. It was eight miles above where Omaha is now. It is a place called Florence now.

157: I thought you stated on your direct examination it was where Omaha now is?
No sir. I stated that it was where was known in those days as the Omaha nation, and really it was through their permission that we got to stay there that time in winter quarters.

158: Well I understood you to say the other day that you remained there a while and then returned to Nauvoo?
Yes sir, and that is what I said to-day too.

159: What time did you leave there on your return to Nauvoo?
I can’t say exactly as to the time but it was right away though. I stayed there but a little while before starting upon my return to Nauvoo. Right immediately after those officers were calling for volunteers to go to Mexico.

160: Was it in the summer?
It was in the summer, – it was in warm weather I remember that.

161: Did you return to Nauvoo alone?
No sir.

162: Who went with you?
There was three of us went together, that had families back there. We took a wagon and horse team and went back to Nauvoo and help my father fit up – for at that time it did not take me long to get ready as I has only a wife and one child at that time. And I left them there with my father when I left in the spring.

163: What time did you arrive in Nauvoo?
On our return do you mean?

164: Yes sir, after you returned from the point where you had established winter quarters as you called it. What time on your return did you arrive in Nauvoo?
It was some time in the month of July.

165: Then what did you do?
We fitted up and started again just as quick as I could get ready to do so.

166: Where did you go?
I went across the state of Iowa in winter quarters in Nebraska, – It was in the Omaha nation at that time but it is called Nebraska now.

167: Who went with you?
Oh, my father and family. My sisters, brothers, wife and child, and quite a company of us. In fact there was companies all the way through clear across the state, for we never stopped a night alone.

168: Did you report to any body after you got back to winder quarters?
No sir.

169: You were not required to do that?
No sir.

170: Now you stated the other day that you were personally acquainted with Brigham Young?
Yes sir, I was well acquainted with him.

171: Was he there then?
No sir he was on the road when I turned back, for I met him and most of the twelve as I was returning I met a part of them any way.

172: Well at that time did your acquaintance date with Brigham Young?
Sir?

173: From what time did your acquaintance with Brigham Young date?
What time did I get acquainted with Brigham Young?

174: Yes sir, what time did your acquaintance begin with Brigham young?
When I first went to Nauvoo.

175: And when did you say that was?
I first went to Nauvoo in the spring of 1845.

176: And that was the time you first became acquainted with Brigham young?
Yes sir. I never met him before that time.

177: And then you knew him also at winter quarters?
Yes sir.

178: You knew him there?
Yes sir, and I lived right close to him there at winter quarters.

179: Did you know him there they first time you went there, or the second time or both times?
I knew him before we went there at all.

180: How long did you stay there at winter quarters?
The first time I went there to winter quarters was with a band of pioneers, and Brigham Young was not there at all that time.

181: Well how long did you stay at winter quarters?
At winter quarters, – did you ask me how long I staid there?

182: Yes sir?
The first time?

183: No sir, the second time?
The second time?

184: Yes sir?
I stayed there until the spring of 1847.

185: And you got there in the fall?
We got there in the winter.

186: In the winter of 1846?
Yes sir.

187: And you stayed there until the spring of 1847?
Yes sir.

188: And then you left I believe you said?
Yes sir, then I moved down to St Joseph.

189: And where from St Joe did you go?
Then I moved again back up into Iowa.

190: When did you move back to Iowa?
In 1853 I moved back into Iowa again. There was about thirty of us went up together.

191: You said you saw the twelve at winter quarters?
No sir, I said I saw some of them there.

192: Well state who of the twelve you saw at winter quarters, – give their names?
The twelve?

193: Yes sir?
Let me see, – that was Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Dr. Richards, Jojn Taylor, Amasa Lymen, Geo, A. Smith, – Did I mention Orson Hyde?

194: No sir?
Well there was Orson Hyde too?

195: Did you mention Heber Kimball?
Yes sir I mentioned Heber C. Kimball.

196: Was Wilfred Woodruff there also?
Yes sir Wilfred Woodruff was there, we went with him.

197: Was Orson Pratt there also?
Yes sir, – Orson Pratt was there.

198: Or Parley Pratt?
yes sir it was Parley Pratt, – I mean, – not Orson Pratt but Parley Pratt I mean, – he was the Pratt that was there. I never saw Orson Pratt but I have heard of him.

199: You say you never saw Orson Pratt?
No sir.

200: Now do you claim, – do you remember any others of the twelve that were there in winter quarters?
No sir I do not remember any more, but there might have been others.

201: Now who of the twelve were not there?
Oh there was some of them were not there. There was the one that died down in Texas. I know his name well but cannot think of it just at the present time.

202: Was it White?
White, I knew him well by reputation but I never saw him.

203: Do you know whether or not Orson Pratt was one of the apostles?
Orson Pratt?

204: Yes sir,- Do you know whether or not he was one of the opostles?
Yes sir, he was one of the apostles.

205: Well now what year did you say this was?
This was in 1847. 205 1-2

205: This was when you were at winter quarters?
Yes sir.

206: Did you see anything of the church records?
No sir.

207: Did you not see anything of them?
No sir, I had nothing to do with the church records. I had nothing whatever to do with them, and I did not see them. That is I had nothing to do with what I call the church records. But I have of course seen the published books of the church, which contained some of the records.

208: What kind of records?
Records of the procedings of conference and such as that.

209: Did you know Charles C. Rich?
Yes sir.

210: Was he there?
Yes sir.

211: Was he one of the apostles?
No sir, not at that time.

212: What was he?
Well he was,- I could not say for certain what he was, but I think he was one of the apostles I mean to say I think he was one of the high priest.

213: He was oneof thw high priests?
I think that was the office he occupied, but I would not certain that it was that.

214: Now you have stated here that you heard of some merchants, in St Joseph Missouri talking about the condition of affairs in Jackson County?
Yes sir.

215: Who did you say that was?
I said it was Middleton & Riley two persons who were merchants in business there in St Joe as partners. And they carried on a large business there.

216: Well what was it they said?
Well they said they thought it was not safe for Latter Day Saints to settle in this part of the country, or come down here. They said that they thought the feeling was against such a thing, It would not be safe for the saints to do so or to attempt to do so.

217: When was that?
Well it was from 1849,- I got acquainted with them in the spring of 1847, and I was acquainted with the of them until the spring of 1853, but the times they told me that was from 1849,- say until I left there in the spring of 1853.

218: Can you call to mind any body else that you talked with about the same matter?
What is that?

219: I ask you if you could call to mind any body else that you talked to about the same matter?
About what matter?

220: About the danger that would attend any of the Latter Day Saints as you term them, if they would attempt to establish a residence in this section of the country?
Yes sir I talked with a number of people about St Joe there,- old settlers that lived up there.

221: Please state their names if you can?
One was Dr. Thompson and lawyer Thompson and Jeff Thompson,- I was intimately acquainted with him, for he was a young man like myself.

223: What did they know about it?
Well they were of the same opinion about Latter Day Saints living in this country, or settling here, they thought it would be dangerous for them to attempt to do so.

223: You inquired of them in regard to that?
Yes sir.

224: What made you inquire about that?
Well it was natural that I should inquire, I was a Latter Day Saint myself and I knew a great many of saints that had lived here, and they had told me about there experience here, and it was natural that I should like to know about how the people felt down here towards the Latter Day Saints. I had heard a great deal about this place and seen so many of the people that belonged to the church who had lived here, and had to leave here, and I know all about the circumstances of their being drove out of here and everything of that kind and this being called a central stake or central place or location for the gathering of the saints, why for that reason I was interested in the matter, expecting the time would come when it would be opened for those that wanted to settle here could do so and they would be protected by the law in doing so. This young Thompson I told you about, —not the lawyer or the merchant, he was a surveyor and was one of the surveyors that surveyed out the Hannibal and St Joseph railroad, and he was a man that led a company of or robbers during the war of the rebellion.

225: Who was that?
That was young Jeff Thompson and I was well acquainted with him.

226: Do you know that he led a company of plunders or robbers only from heresay, —I had that from a lot of people who were well acquainted with him.
 

227: Well I want to know if you do not know that just like you do a great many other things regarding which you have testified here to day? Is not a great many things that you testified to here to-day, and on your direct examination a few days ago, —something that you have heard and do not know of your own knowledge. Is that not the way, —you know these things from common report that you know a great many of these things that you testified to on your direct examination?
No sir, I don’t know that it is, for when it was common report I generally stated it that way. Things that I did not personally know of my own knowledge I so stated I believe, but when I got it from my personal friends, it was different and I stated it so.

228: Is it not a fact that you know about the reputation of things here in Jackson County, in the same way that you know about Jeff Thompson’s conduct during the war?
Yes sir of course that was the way I know about him, for I knew it from good reliable men that I was well acquainted with. This is the first time sir that I have been on the witness stand in a case like this, but I have been on grand juries and petit juries ever since I was old enough but this is the first time I have been on the witness stand in a case like this, and what I know I tell you, and what I don’t know of my own personal knowledge I tell you where I got my information.

229: In your direct examination you said something about a statement of Brigham Young as to the bible and book of Mormon being not worth a rye straw, did you not?
Yes sir I said in their publication of papers they showed that they did not value the bible, or the book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Couvenants any more than that. I said something like that any way.

230: Where was that?
In their publications.

231: You saw that in their publications?
Yes sir. I took the Utah papers all the time, from the beginning up to the present time.

232: And that is how you know it?
Yes sir and from hearing of it from people that were present when he said it, and seeing it in his published sermons. That is a pretty good authority for it I think when people that were present and heard it tell me so, and I see it also in his sermons as they were published.

233: Where did you see it in his published sermons?
In the Utah church papers.

234: And that is how you know it?
Yes sir, and I heard him say he was a bible himself, –

235: Well that is all I have to ask the witness, – ?
 

236: When did you first learn about any endowments in the church?
About what?

237: About endowments in the church?
That was after I went to Nauvoo in 1845.

238: How long after you first went there did you first learn about endowments?
It was in the spring of 1845 that I first heard of it. That was when I first read of it, – I mean when I first heard of it, but I have run across the church records of endowments given in Kirtland in the early days of the church when the temple was built in Kirtland.

239: Now what endowments do you refer to, – what do you understand by endowments in the church at that time?
What do I understand by endowments?

240: Yes sir?
What I understood by endowments, – what it should be, – would be the teachings and instructions from the ceremonies, – I mean the instructions delivered from God through the sermon of his prophets and apostles. That would be an endowment in the manner in which wisdom would be given to the Saints through the ministry of the church that were going to be sent out to the nations of the earth to preach the gospel unto all who would hear. It would be the special gift of the Holy Ghost and the Spirit to such to enable them to administer the Gospel in power. It was instructions given to the ministry of the church more particularly.

241: Of what did those endowments consist?
They consisted of the Spirit of God being given to the prophet and to the officers of the church and ministry, and instructions to send them out to preach in the fields and labor in the interests of the church wherever they would be called to labor, and to the end that sucess would crown their efforts. They were to be sent to the different nations of the earth by a special revelation.

242: Do you mean such an endowment as that which was had on the day of Pentecost?
Yes sir, the same kind of an endowment.

243: Was it accompanied by secrecy?
No sir, I do not consider there was any secrecy in endowments from God.

244: That is all?
 

245: You say there was no secrecy?
In what respect?

246: In answer to a question asked you by Mr Traber you say there was no secrecy in the endowments?
Yes sir.

247: Will you please state how they were conducted?
I mean what I understood to be the endowment in Kirtland administered in the temple there.

248: In Kirtland?
Yes sir, in Kirtland, Ohio.

249: Well I am talking about the endowment at Nauvoo?
Well that is different.

250: That is different?
Yes sir. That was different.

251: Well what was that? on the ground that it is irrelevant and immeterial, and not proper re-cross examination.
 

252: Well I want to ask you this question. You were asked whether the endowments at Nauvoo that you took were secret ones?
What is that?

253: You were asked whether or not the endowments at Nauvoo that you took were secret or not? – or whether there was any secrecy about it?
 

254: Well I want to know what they were?
Do I understand from this that you mean the endowments that were given or received at Kirtland Ohio?

255: No sir, I am asking you about the endowments you took at Nauvoo what were they, – what were these endowments that you took at Nauvoo?
Well I don’t know that it would be interesting for me to state what they were.

256: Well state what they were and we can judge whether or not the recital is interesting?
Well I don’t know as I can do it.

257: Well if you have good reasons to decline to state what they were you may say so?
Well there was really nothing to state about it. I am not afraid to state it so far as that is concerned. But as far as I understand the matter of endowments in Nauvoo was a different thing altogether from the endowments in Kirtland Ohio.

258: Well now I will ask you this question and you can answer it or not just as you see fit. If you decline to answer it you can say so. What were the endowments given at Nauvoo, – Now if you do not wish to answer that question say “I decline to answer the question”, and if you wish to state it, state what they were.
The long and short of it is that we do not accept that organization under Brigham Young after 1844.

259: Well you seem to that accepted it?
Well perhaps I did in part, but I did not stay with it any longer than I had to when I found out what it was.

260: Well that is all?
Is that all?

261: Hold on there is one more question, – Are you at the present time a member of the Re-organized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
Yes sir.

262: You are at the present time a member of that organization?
Yes sir.

263: When did you become a member of it?
I became a member in 1859. 264 (Question and answer are missing)

265: That is all.