1: Please state your name to the reporter?
My name is James Whitehead.
2: Mr Whitehead, where do you live?
Where do I live now?
3: Yes sir, – where do you live now?
I live at Lamoni, Iowa.
4: How long have yo lived there?
I have lived there nearly three (3) years.
5: Where did you live prior to your coming to Lamoni, Iowa to live?
Before I came to Lamoni I lived at Alton, Illinois.
6: How long did you live at Alton?
I can’t hear very well.
7: How long did you live at Alton?
About forty (40) years.
8: What other place did you live in Illinois, if at any place, other than at Alton?
I lived at Nauvoo Illinois.
9: When did you live at Nauvoo, Illinois?
I lived in the City of Nauvoo.
10: When did you live there in the City of Nauvoo?
I landed there on the 13th of April 1842.
11: How long did you live there?
I lived there until the fall of 1847.
12: What was your business in Nauvoo from 1842 to 1847?
I was engaged in the church business, – church work.
13: What business were you engaged in?
I was, when Joseph was living, I was in his office as his secretary, and after that I kept on with the church work.
14: You mean that you were the Secretary of Joseph Smith?
15: How long were you his secretary?
From early in June 1842, and I was there when he was killed.
16: Then from 1842 to 1844, – the time that he was killed, – you were his Secretary?
Yes sir. I was there then at the time he was killed.
17: Did you know the officers in the old church?
18: How long had you been a member of the old church before you went to Nauvoo, if you were a member?
I was a member of the church when I went there. I was baptized on the 18th day of October 1837. I lived in England at Preston Lancashire at the time I was baptized.
19: Who baptized you?
I was baptized by Heber C. Kimball.
20: Were you from 1842 to 1844 acquainted with the general church doctrines of the old church?
21: You were familiar with the doctrine and tenets of the old church from 1842 to 1844?
22: Are you familiar with the doctrine and tenets of the Re-organ- ized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, – the plain- tiffs in this case?
Am I acquainted with the doctrine?
23: Yes sir, – the doctrine and tenets of the re-organized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
24: What, if any, difference is there, between the doctrine of the old church from 1830 to 1844, from the doctrine of the plaintiffs in this case?
25: You may state the question, – I mean you may answer the question now, and state the difference, if there is any between the doctrine of the old church, and the doctrine of the re-organ- ized Church?
The doctrine taught in the old church in the days of Joseph Smith the prophet and seer, and the doctrine taught in the re-organized church now, – is that what you want?
26: Yes sir?
It is the same.
27: Are the books of doctrine of the old church, the same books that are used by the Re-organized church?
28: They are the same books that are used by the re-organized church , – the plaintiffs in this case?
Yes sir, the books used in the old church, and in the re-organized church are the same. You mean the standard books?
29: Yes sir.
They are the same.
30: Will you tell the reporter what these books are, – that the stand- ard books in the re-organized church, and also in the old church tell the reporter what they are?
the books are called the bible and the testament, – the Book of Mormon, and the revelation of God to his people in this day, and the book of covenants. These are the three books that are standard.
31: Those were the standard books of the old church were they not?
They were in Joseph’s Day.
32: Are they the same books, – the standard books of the new church, – the plaintiff in this case uses?
They are recognized as standard both by the old church and the re-organized church.
33: Now what official position outside of the Secretary ship did you hold in the old original church?
What office did I hold?
34: Yes sir.
I was an high priest.
35: For how long?
From 1841 until now. At the first general conference in Manchester, England, held by the twelve, there was sixteen called to be high priests, and they were ordained at that conference, and I was one of them.
36: Do you hold the same office now in the re-organized church that you did in the old church?
37: And that is the office an high priest?
Yes sir, I was and am an high priest. I was ordained in Manchester England.
38: Will you state to the reporter the duties of an high priest?
39: I asked you to state to the reporter what the duties are of an high priest?
What the duties are?
40: Yes sir?
The duties are to preach the gospel as it is written according to the divine words of out Divine Master Jesus Christ and the prophets and the apostles, to preside at meetings and to give instruction according to the standard of the faith, but they must be in harmony with the word of God.
41: Do you recollect a meeting that was held in Nauvoo Illinois, some time prior to Joseph’ Smiths death, at which there was a selection made, or an appointment made of a cuccessor to him?
42: When was that meeting held?
It was held in Nauvoo.
43: When was it held, – what year?
It was held in the winter of 1843.
44: That was the meeting at which a sucessor to Joseph Smith was selected?
Yes sir, that was the time, and it was some time in the winter of 1843 that it was held.
45: Who, if any body, was selected as sucessor?
46: Ye sir?
His son Joseph was.
47: Who made the selection?
Why the Lord made it through his prophet.
48: Who did the talking I mean?
What is that?
49: Who did the talking at that time, to those that were present?
There was Joseph and Hyrum and John Taylor and some others there, that spoke on the subject. Thee was twenty five (25) I suppose at that meeting.
50: What, if anything, was done after that with reference to an ordination?
He was ordained and annointed at that meeting. Hyrum Smith, the Patriarch annointed him, and Joseph His father blessed him and ordained him, and Newell K. Whitney held the horn and poured the oil on his head, and he was ordained to be his fathers sucessor in the office holding all the blessings and powers that his father held.
51: Who were present at the time of this ordination?
Oh, I can’t say who all were present, – there was a good many there.
52: Well name as many as you can remember that were present at this ordination?
Well John Taylor was present, and Williard Richards was present, they were two of the twelve, – Ebenezer Robinson was present, George J. Adams was present, Alpheus Cutler was present, Reynolds Cahoon was present, and I can’t tell them all any how, – but I was there too.
53: These are the ones that you recollect were present at the time of the selection and ordination?
Yes sir, and I was there too.
54: Do you know Mr Whitehead what the doctrine of the old church was from the time it was established in 1830 down to 1844, with reference to marriage?
A man could have one wife.
55: Well just answer the question yes or no, and then you can state what it was?
Well I know something about it.
56: Was that doctrine of the church monogamy or polygamy?
Polygamy was never taught by Joseph Smith, now was it ever practiced in the time of Joseph to my knowledge. Joseph never taught it at all.
57: Was polygamy a doctrine of the original church, and taught by the elders and high priests, or by any other person or persons of authority in that church, so far as you know from 1830 to 1844?
58: Has the doctrine of polygamy to your knowledge been taught or practiced by any person in the Re-organized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, since the re-organization?
In this present organization?
59: Yes sir?
60: It was not and has not been?
No sir, for we did not believe in it. Not to my knowledge there has not been anything of the kind taught in this church, for if they did that they would be out off mighty quick.
61: Do any of the books of doctrine of the re-organized church teach, or countenance the practice of polygamy?
62: You may answer the question , if you understand it?
No sir, they do not.
63: Do, or did any of the books of the original church established in 1830, teach or endorse the practice of polygamy?
64: I Will ask you Mr. Whitehead if this book marked “Exhibit D.D.” being the original Book of Mormon, is one of the books of doctrine of the old church, and also a book of doctrine of the new re-organized church?
The book of Mormon is. It was acknowledged and accepted both in the old church and the re-organized church.
65: Look at Exhibit D. and state to the reporter whether or not that is one of the books of the doctrine of the old church, and also of the re-organized church?
This book of Mormon?
66: Yes Sir?
In what way?
67: Just look at it, and state whether or not that is one of the books of doctrine that was accepted as a doctrinal book in the old church?
68: And is it also accepted and acknowledged as a book of doctrine in the re-organized church?
It is, -the Book of Mormon is acknowledged and accepted both in the old church and the re-organized church of Latter Day Saints.
69: Was this same book of Mormon marked Exhibit D.D. that I now have in my hand, or one like it used by the old church?
Yes sir. The same doctrine is there as was used in the days of Joseph.
70: It was used by the old church, and is now used by the re-organized church as a book of doctrine, is it not?
Yes sir. “I will now offer for the purpose of identification the book of doctrine and covenants, Kirtland, Ohio. , edition of 1835.” The book above referred to as being offered for the purpose of identification is marked “Exhibit E, J.M Orr.”
71: Look at this book Mr. Whitehead, marked Exhibit E, and state whether or not that is oneo f the books of the old church?
72: That is one of the books of the old church?
Yes sir, this book was endorsed by the old church.
73: Is it a book that was endorsed by the first organization of
74: And by the re-organization, the plaintiff in this case?
Yes sir it was recognized as a book of the old church and it is so recognized by the re-organization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. “Plaintiff now offers for the purpose of identification, the 1874 edition of the Book of Mormon, published at Lamoni, Iowa.” The book above referred to as the 1874 edition of the book of Mormon, published at Lamoni, Iowa, is marked “Exhibit F.J.M. Orr”.
75: Look at this book which I now hand you Mr Whitehead, and which is marked Exhibit F., and state to the reporter what that is?
I endorse that.
76: What book is that?
That is the Book of Mormon, and it is correct according to the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Chrisr, and it was recognized by the first church, and also by the reorganized church of Jesus Christ. “Plaintiff offers for the purpose of identification and the 1845 edition of the book of Doctrine and Covenants”. The book of Doctrine and Covenants, above referred to, and marked “Exhibit G.J.M. Orr.” Plaintiff offers in evidence for the purpose of identification the 1846 edition of the Book of Doctrine and Covenants”. The book of Doctrine and Covenants above referred to the same being the 1846 edition thereof, is marked “Exhibit H.J.M. Orr”. Plaintiff also offers for the purpose of identification the 1852 edition of the book of Doctrine and Covenants”. The book above referred to as the 1852 edition of the book of Doctrine and Covenants, which is marked “Exhibit I.J.M. Orr”. Plaintiff offers for the purpose of identification the 1880 edition of the book of Doctrine and Covenants”. The book above referred to as the 1880 edition of the book of Doctrine and Covenants is marked “Exhibit J.J.M. Orr”.
77: I will ask you Mr Whitehead if this book which is marked Exhibit J, is one of the recognized standards of doctrine of the re-organized church of Jesus Christ, the plaintiff in this case?
Yes sir, it is. I recognize it. That was recognized in the first church, and it was, or is recognized in the re-organized Church of Jesus Christ. 78 (Mistakenly listed as a second 76)
77: Mr Whitehead look at that book, and see if you know, and can state what it is?
That is the “Times & Seasons”. 79 (Mistakenly listed as a second 77)
77: I will ask you whether or not that was an original publication of the original church?
I acknowledged it up to the time that Joseph and Hyrum were killed as being official.
80: You recognized it as official up to the time of the deaths of Joseph and Hiram Smith?
81: I will ask you if that is the position of the re-organized church?
82: So that the publication known as the “Times and Seasons”, was the official church publication, – the official church paper, until the time of Joseph’s Smith’s death in 1844?
83: And was recognized as such by the church?
Yes sir. “I offer this book now for the purpose of identification, and ask that it be marked “Exhibit K (which was accordingly done). “I offer for the purpose of identification the Times and Seasons”, from November 1839, Vol. No 1, to November 11th 1842, – being Vols 1, 2, and 3, and asking that the same be marked “Exhibit L”, (which was accordingly done).
84: I will ask you Mr Whitehead, where this paper, the Times and Seasons was published?
It was published in Nauvoo, I guess most all of the time.
85: It was published you say in Nauvoo?
Yes sir, most of the time.
86: By whom was it published?
By the church.
87: By the church of which Joseph Smith was the head?
By the church that he was the President of.
88: It was published by the authority of the church of which Joseph Smith was the President?
89: Joseph Smith that is now dead?
Yes sir, Joseph the prophet and seer who was killed at Carthage.
90: It was published by the church I have been calling here to-day, the “old church”?
91: Do you know by what authority the paper was published?
92: Do you know by what authority the paper or publication was published, – that is this book was published?
Joseph Smith. He sanctioned it. He had the over sight of the publishing house.
93: I will ask you whether or not the paper which was called the “Times & Seasons”, was recognized by the church as a church paper, and an authority?
94: How was it published, – in book form or in pamphlet form?
It was published in pamphlet forms, and then bound up afterwards.
95: I will ask you whether or not John Taylor was not editor at least a part of the time during the publication of the Times and Seasons?
He was at the time Joseph was killed.
96: I will ask you whether the John Taylor that appears on the face of this book, to be the editor at one time, was the same John Taylor who afterwards went with the Brighamite faction of the church to the Salt Lake Valley?
He was the same man.
97: He is the John Taylor that went to the Valley with Brigham Young.
The same man, yes sir.
98: Now Mr Whitehead, I want to ask you this question, – who was the President of the Church there at Nauvoo Illinois, the branch, and also the President of the High Council in 1844?
Joseph Smith was President of the Church, and Bishop Miller was President of the High Council, – the quorom of High Priests, but the High Counsellor, – he is dead now. He was the President of the stake and High Council, but he was in the re-organized church at first.
99: What position, if any, did William Marks held in the old church?
He was the President of the stake, – of the Nauvoo stake.
100: You say William Marks was President of the Nauvoo stake?
101: Who was President of the High Council at the time William Marks was President of the Nauvoo stake?
Why the President of the stake was President of the Council. The President of the stake was President of the High Council.
102: What position did William Marks sustain to the reorganized church after 1844?
To the re-organized church since 1844?
103: Yes sir?
Why he was counsellor at one time to Joseph as I understand it. I was never much acquainted with him in the re-organized church, for I was not up there at the time; but I knew him in Nauvoo very well.
104: You were acquainted with him in Nauvoo?
105: Do you know that he was a member of the re-organized church?
Certainly. I do.
106: Well, was he a member of the re-organized church?
Certainly he was.
107: You say you were born in England?
108: Now when did you first come to this country from England?
I landed at Orleans on the first day of April 1842, and at Nauvoo on the 13th day of April 1842.
109: When did you first become a member of the church after you came to Nauvoo?
When did I become a member of the church after I got to Nauvoo?
110: Yes sir?
I was a member of the church then. I was a member of the church before I came to this country.
111: When did you first become a member of the church in this country and after you came to this country?
I took a certificate from the church in England certifying that I was a member of the church there, and when I came here I handed it to the President of the branch, and was recorded as a member of the branch.
112: What branch?
The Nauvoo branch.
113: Who was the President of the branch?
I forget the man’s name, for I don’t remember all the names, it was so long ago that happened. I was recorded as a member of the branch at Nauvoo on my certificate, and I can produce a hundred, – yes five hundred, – that knew I was there, and was a member of that branch.
114: I asked you who was the President of the branch?
I don’t re- member what his name was. I don’t recollect who it was.
115: How many members were there there in the branch at that time?
Well they kept coming so quick before Joseph was killed, – at that time there was about twenty five thousand (25,000) Latter Day Saints in Nauvoo.
116: There was about twenty thousand (20,000) Latter Day Saints there at Nauvoo at that time?
Yes sir, at the time that Joseph was murdered there was about twenty or twenty five thousand ( (20,000, or 25,000) saints there. There was about that many there at the time Joseph and Hiram were murdered.
117: About when was that, – at what time was that?
That was in 1844.”
118: About how many were there at the first time you went there, – when did you say you first went there?
119: Yes sir?
That was on the 13th day of April 1842 that I landed there at Nauvoo.
120: Well, about how many of the church were there at Nauvoo at the time you first arrived there?
Well that is a hard question for me to answer.
121: Well tell us about how many were there approgimately?
Well probably (10,000), but I would not say difinitely how many there were there then, but I think about ten thous- and (10,000)
122: Did they increase very rapidly the first year or two after you went there?
Well they increased considerable. There is no use in you asked me these questions for I can’t tell you just how many were there, and I am not going to tell you anything only what I know. I am going to only tell you what I know to be the truth.
123: Well I am sure that is all I want. Now you say they increased considerably the first year or two after you arrived at Nauvoo? Is that your answer.
Yes sir, they increased pretty repidly.
124: And so at the time of the death of Joseph Smith they numbered about twenty thousand (20,000)?
Yes sir, some where about that.
125: And at the time you went there there were about ten thousand (10,000) there?
I did not say that. I said I did not know how many were there at the time I arrived there. I said I thought there was about ten thousand (10,000) there.
126: Was there any of the denomination at other points at that time?
Was there what?
127: Was there any branches of that denomination at other points at that time?
Not in Nauvoo that I knew of.
128: Where was there any others?
What? Branches of the Saints?
129: Yes sir?
They were all around there. There was some at Nauvoo, there was some at Carthage, and some at Fort Madison, they were all around there.
130: About how many adherents had the church at the time Joseph Smith was killed?
What, every where?
131: Yes sir?
About two hundred and fifty thousand (250,000). Now I want it distinctly understood that I do not say they were all in America, but belonging to the Church in America, in England, some in Scotland, and some in Wales and some in Ireland, there was about two hundred and fifty thousand (250,000) altogether.
132: About what proportion of them were in America?
Well there was most in England.
133: More in England than in this country?
No sir, not altogether in this country, but there were more in England than there were in Nauvoo. There was about ten thousand emigrated from England to this country, and there was about twenty five thousand (25,000) there altogether when Joseph and Hyrum were killed.
134: At the time of Joseph’s death there was about twenty five thousand left in England?
135: What I want to get at is about how many there were in the church in America at that time?
Well I don’t know that.
136: You have stated there was about two hundred and fifty thousand (250,000)?
Yes sir, in all, every where, but not in America alone.
137: Well, about how many of that number were in America would you think?
I couldn’t tell.
138: Was there half of it?
Yes sir, more than that.
139: Was there three fourths of it?
No sir, I don’t think there was three fourths in America.
140: Well on a rough estimate would you put the number that at the time that Joseph was killed as being in America, at one hundred and fifty thousand (150,000)?
I should think there was, but I am not certain about it.
141: Now what I mean by “America”, is in the United States?
Yes sir that is what I supposed. There was some in France and other places. They were in a good many places, in the islands of the Sea.
142: About hos many are there in the re-organized church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
143: Answer the question?
How many is there in the re-organized church?
144: Yes sir, that is the question I asked you?
Well I couldn’t say. I could not tell you. I suppose there is over thirty thousand (30,000). That is in this country.
145: Yes sir, I understand, ?
And there is some in other places. Now that is my opinion as to the number, for I should think there is about that many, but I don’t know the number.
146: Now you said in your examination in chief,–“
147: You said in your examination in chief, that your became or were the Secretary of Joseph Smith?
Yes sir, I was.
148: At about what time definitely?
Did I become his Secretary?
149: Yes sir?
Definitely I took the position as his secretary I think it was on the 11th day of June 1849. I was in the office before that, but not as his secretary until that time.
150: What were the duties of the secretary?
To keep accounts, and keep all the correspondence, and everything of that kind.
151: That were your duties?
Yes sir. I used to keep his correspondence and letter books, and everything that belonged to the church.
152: Did he have a good deal of correspondence and a good many letter books?
Well not many letter books, but he had a good deal of correspondence.
153: Did you keep the church records?
I did not keep the historical accounts.
154: Was it his business, and did he keep the church records?
155: No sir. Was it Joseph business?
Why there was a historian kept them.
156: Who was he?
Willard Richards when I was there did that.
157: Where did he live?
158: Where did he keep his records?
In Nauvoo, he had an office there.
160: Who had the records from the earliest time down to the time when you were at Nauvoo?
Why James Sloan had a good deal to do with keeping the records.
169: How do you know they went there?
I know they did for I helped pack them myself.
170: You did?
171: How did you come to do that?
I was ordered by Joseph’s administrator to do that, and Joseph Coolidge was his name if you want to know it.
172: He was the administrator of Joseph Smith?
173: And he ordered you to pack them?
Yes sir. He gave his commands to the twelve, and they ordered me to pack them up.
174: Into whose hands did you deliver them after you packed them?
What is that?
175: Into whose hands did you deliver them, – whom did you give them to after you packed them?
I delivered them according to the instruction I got.
176: Who got them?
Well they went to Salt Lake City. Now I will tell you how I know it. I did not go into winter quarters when they did. I stayed at Nauvoo until I was finished up my business when I went over to where they were.
177: What winter quarters do you refer to?
They were in winter quarters in Omaha, and they asked me there to re-pack the records.
178: Where did you say that was they were in winter quarters?
It was in Omaha, or where Omaha is now, – It was the Indian Territory then.
179: Did you go to Omaha?
180: What did you go there for?
I went there to make my report when I had finished my business.
181: Well did did you make your report?
182: To whom did you make your report?
To the High Council. It was to the High Council, or what claimed to be the High Council, – or twelve.
183: The twelve?
184: They were at Omaha, or were in winter quarters you said at the place where Omaha now stands?
185: Well where did the twelve go from that point?
They went from there to Salt Lake Valley I suppose, but I did not go there with them.
186: You do not go through with them?
187: But you delivered the records to them where they were in winter quarters?
Yes sir. I did according to the instructions of the administrator of Joseph Smith.
188: What time was that?
Well there was a great many went in 1846, but I went, – I stopped there to help finish up the business, and I did not go to Omaha until the fall of 1847, and I went there, or got there in December, and stayed there until early in the following April.
189: Now then do I understand you correctly, when you testify that you were the Secretary of Joseph Smith, – or were appointed his Secretary in 1842?
Yes sir. I was made his Secretary then and I was his secretary until the time he was killed or murdered.
190: From 1842 until the time he was killed you were his secretary, and he was killed in 1844?
Yes sir. He was killed the 27th day of June 1844.
191: And you testify that you had certain records in your possession?
192: You did?
Yes sir. I did until I gave them to the administrator.
193: Until you turned them over to Joseph Smith’s Administrator you
had them in your possession?
Yes sir. I turned them over to him, and then he turned them over to the twelve.
194: And the twelve took them where?
195: And in 1847 you went to Omaha and helped re-pack the records?
196: That is what you testify to?
197: And you left them there in the possession of the twelve?
Yes sir, I did.
198: Then what did you do?
Then I returned and went to Alton.
199: And the twelve took these records as you understand it to Salt Lake City?
Yes sir. That is what I understand, but I didn’t see them take them there, for I was not with them.
200: Can you give me the names of some of the parties who composed the twelve?
201: Well, who were they?
There was Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, George A. Smith, William Smith, – but William Smith did not go to Salt Lake City, and he was one of the twelve, – there was Wilfred Woodruf, Parley Pratt, Orson Pratt, Lyman White, and Page, I forget his first name.
202: John E. Page?
Yes sir, – John E. Page. He did not go and William Smith did not go, – neither of them went to the Valley with the rest.
203: Was John Taylor one of them?
204: Well there is one you have not mentioned, – you have mentioned eleven (11) only and there was twelve (12)?
Yes sir there was another. I can’t think who that was now. Yes I remember it was Amasa Lyman.
205: That list you have numerated makes up the twelve?
Yes sir I believe that is all of them.
206: Now when you returned from Omaha, where did you go?
207: To Alton Illinois?
208: Had you lived at Alton prior to that time?
No sir, I had never been there before, but I had friends living there.
209: Did you have a church there?
What is that?
210: Was there a church there belonging to your denomination?
There was a branch there but I had nothing to do with that.
211: You had nothing to do with that?
212: Why did you have nothing to do with that?
I had left the party altogether. I did not believe in the way they were doing.
213: What was the trouble?
There was so much wickedness and corruption among them that I couldn’t stay with them.
214: What was it?
All kinds of wickedness, – drinking and carousing and whoring and everything else.
215: In the church at Alton?
No sir, at Omaha.
216: That was the reason you went back to Alton?
Yes sir. That was the reason I left there.
217: And came back to Alton?
218: You were not suited with their practices?
No sir, for there was all kinds of wickedness and carousing and drinking and whoring going on, and that was not what Joseph had taught, and so I left them, for I was disgusted with their practices.
219: About how many of them were at Omaha at the time you were there?
I don’t know how many were there. I can’t say how many were there. There was a great many started for there, but they got scattered out in every direction.
220: Well about how many were there in winter quarters at Omaha?
I really could not say.
221: Well was there as many as fifty thousand (50,000)?
I don’t know whether there was or not. I couldn’t say without making a guess at it, and I don’t like guessing.
222: Well you returned from Omaha to Alton?
223: Was there a church at Alton?
There was a small branch there, – just a hew of them, – I don’t know just how many, but about twenty I think.
224: Did you become a member of that branch?
225: Why not?
Because I had left the church.
226: You had left the church entirely?
Yes sir, entirely, and I did not have anything to do with them.
227: That was in 1847?
228: That you left the church and returned to Alton?
No sir, that was in 1848. I landed there on the 25th day of May 1848.
229: Landed where?
At Alton, – that is the time I got there.
230: Well you afterwards re-joined the church?
231: Well, when did you next become a member of the church?
I rejoined the church, or became a member of the Re-organized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in September 1865.
232: You remained out of the church then some fifteen or sixteen years?
Yes sir. Over that I guess.
233: Well about seventeen years?
Anyhow I became a member again in 1865.
234: At what point did you again become a member of the church?
At Alton. I joined the branch at Alton at that time, and that is the reason I joined the branch at St Louis, for there was none at Alton.
235: Are you acquainted with the movements of the re-organized church from the time of its organization, up to the time you joined the church?
Yes sir I was pretty well acquainted with it, and I will tell you what made me join it, – because I knew that Joseph Smith was the right man to lead the church. I knew that he had been ordained, and was ordained and set apart by his father as successor in the office of the head of the church, and he came out and made that proclamation to the saints in mass, and they received it. Now that is the reason I came back to the church, for I always believed in its teaching and intended to go back to it again when the right time would come, as I knew it would some time.
236: At what time did he do that?
237: Then how is it you did not belong to this church sooner that 1865?
Because he did not take his place until 1860. He was but a boy, and when he was ordained he was not to take his place until the Lord called him, and he did not do it until then, so it was in 1860 when he took his place in obedience to the call of the Lord.
238: Now then Mr Whitehead I want to be kind to you in this examination?
Well that is all right.
239: I want to be kind to you in this cross examination, and I want you to consider as I ask you some questions now that I am doing it not to annoy you, -?
Oh, I don’t believe that, –
240: But to properly represent this side of the case, – that is the side I am on, and that is a duty I owe to myself as well as to my clients?
I know you have a perfect right to do that.
241: Well now that I have my explanation I want to enquire particularly about that ordination?
Well sir what do you wish to know about it?
242: At what time did it occur?
At what time did the ordination of Joseph Smith occur, – is that what you wish to know?
243: Yes sir.
It occured in the winter of 1843.
244: You know what ordination I refer to?
245: The ordination of young Joseph Smith?
246: The gentlemen who is now that President of the Re-organized Church of Latter Day Saints?
Yes sir, I know what you mean, – what do you want to know about it?
247: You say he was ordained at the time, – or in the winter of 1843 is that correct?
248: About how old was he at the time of that ordaination?
Well that was in “60, –
249: No, no. You don’t understand my question. My question is, – about how old was he at the time of his ordination?
He was about twelve years old.
250: And he was ordained in the year 1843 was he?
I could not say it might have been early in the year of 1844, -it was near that time. I couldn’t say the exact date of his ordination, but if I had the history or minutes of that meeting I could tell you, but the history and minutes all went to Salt Lake City, and as it has been so long agao I can’t remember.
251: So you state that the history of his ordination and the minutes of the meeting at which he was ordained were taken to Salt Lake?
Yes sir. They went there. They started for there, but whether they ever reached there I don’t know.
252: The redords started for there, but you don’t know whether they ever reached Salt Lake or not? Is that what you mean?
Yes sir they started there, but if they got there or not I don’t know, for I was not with them. I can’t say what became of them after they left my hands.
253: Now what were the circumstances of that ordination?
I can’t tell you. What do you mean? What do you mean by that?
254: Well I mean this, – You stated in your examination in chief that Joseph Smith was ordained by his father in pursuance of a revelation which he had received?
255: A revelation from God?
That is so.
256: Now then I want to enquire as to how you know he received a revelation from God?
I know it, – I know it was from God.
257: How do you know it?
I know it because I had it in my hand and read it. It was handed to me, and I use to take care of these things.
258: How was it handed to you?
259: In what shape was it written in, – what shape was it handed to you in?
It was written of course.
260: Were you present when the revelation was made?
No sir, but it was handed to me.
261: This revelation was handed to you, written out?
Yes sir, Joseph handed it to me.
262: Now then I will repeat my question and ask you how you know it was a revelation from God?
How do you know that that bible is true? How do you know the testament is true, – answer me that? I believe what the testament teaches me that if we are to live aright we have to have the Spirit of God and of the Holy Ggost the Comforter, that searcheth all things, – even the deep things of God, and makes it manifest of the children of God.
263: Is that your answer?
I can’t give you any other.
264: The question asked you is how do you know the paper handed to you
by Joseph Smith senior, was the revelation of God?
Well I am convinced and satisfied of it just the same as I am convinced and satisfied that the Bible is a revelation from God. I know it.
265: Well, you must have some reasons for knowing it?
I had reasons. I knew that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and I knew that Joseph Smith would not say that he had received a revelation from God if he had not. Look at the revelations in the book of Covenants there, and they are in perfect harmony with the Bible and Book of Mormon; and every revelation he ever gave is in perfect harmony with it, and I am bound to believe that it is in harmony with that, and I can’t help believing that, but if they were not in harmony with that I would reject it at once. I know sir that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and his revelations were from God, and I know that as well as I know anything on earth.
266: Do you know how a revelation is received?
How what is received?
267: How a revelation is received?
Well he had the Urim and Thimmim I suppose, just as they had it in the ancient days. Now sir that is my faith and I know it too, although you may scoff at it.
268: Did he have the Urim and Thummim?
269: How do you know it?
Because I have seen it.
270: What was it?
I will not tell you what it is. You must search the Bible, for it is not for me to describe these things. He translated the Book of Mormon though that, and it is not for me or anyone else to tell you what it is.
272: Why do you decline to tell me what the Urim and Thummim is?
It is a gift of God, an instrument of the Lord that he gives to his servants and prophets.
273: It is?
274: How do you know it is?
Why don’t he say so in the Bible?
275: Well then go ahead and describe it?
Now I will just ask you a question.
276: No, no, you are not the one who is asking questions now. I am asking you questions, you are not telling me these things for me to believe, for I may know all about it, but you are telling them for the information of the Judge of the United States Circuit Court?
Well I don’t mean to tell things to people that ridicule them.
277: Now I made an explaination before I commenced these examinations as to my motives in this examination, and I thought we understood each other, and just see the trouble I have got into?
Well I think you are going out of your latitude.
278: Well answer his questions Uncle Whitehead, if you can, and if you cannot why say so?
I cannot answer that question better than I have done already.
279: Well answer this question if you are pleased to do so, what is the Urim and Thummim?
Well Moses had the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate, and the rod of heaven, you know that for you can read it in the Bible as well as I can.
280: Well sir the Circuit Judge of the United States Court, before whom this testimony will go will probably want to know something about that, and I do not know how he can find out unless I can get it from the testimony of men who have seen it?
There are hundreds and thousands of men who have read that Bible and they know what it is. They have read it of Aaron’s rod, for it is written there. I can’t describe it, but if I had the Bible I could read it for you.
281: You know Joseph Smith, senior, had it?
Yes sir, he had it.
282: How do you know?
I have answered that question two or three times already.
283: Well, just answer it again?
I have seen it.
284: Well describe it?
Well, I told you it is discribed there. (referring to the bible).
285: Who else did you ever know that had it?
Well Moses had it.
286: Moses had it?
287: Yes sir, did you know him?
No sir I did not know him but I have read of him.
288: Well who else?
There was a great many else had it. It is not for me to say, but I suppose Enoch like enough had it.
289: Who else of the Latter Day Saints that you know of had it?
290: Who else in the re-organized church had it?
I never said there was any one in the re-organized church had it. I did not say that there was any one in the re-organized church that had it.
291: Well I am asking you who had it in the re-organized church? That is the question I ask you?
Well I don’t know.
292: Did you ever see any one in the re-organized church of Latter Day Saints that had had it?
No sir, I don’t know of any one that has had it, but I have seen it.
293: You say that you don’t know of any one in the re-organized church of Latter Day Saints that has ever had it?
I don’t know that any one in the re-organized church that has it, but they may have seen it for all I know to the contrary. I don’t know everything and they may have it for all I know.
294: Now you said in your examination in chief that Joseph was ordained?
295: With the horn and oil?
He was annointed with oil, and ordained by direct commandment from Heaven. 295 (Second number 295)
295: You know that?
296: You know that to be a fact?
297: Well will you describe how that was done?
How he was annointed?
298: Yes sir?
Yes sir, I can tell you how that was done.
299: Well, please state how that was done?
Well he was called up, and he was annointed with oil by Hiram, his uncle, the Patriarch of the church, poured the oil upon his head, and Newel K. Whitney, the bishop, he held the horn, and Joseph laid his hands on him and blessed him, and owned him to be his sucessor in office. Now that is the way it was done.
300: Well now then in accordance with what law of the church was that done, – if it was done by any law of the church?
301: So I understand you to say that this call, and revelation and ordination of Joseph Smith was in accordance with and a direct command from God?
Yes sir. It was a direct commandment from the Almighty from Heaven, – there can be no answer of doubt of that.
302: You state that as a fact?
303: As an absolute fact?
304: Now are all the facts as facts that you have stated here, just as true as that fact?
Why they are according to my knowledge.
305: And that is as true as anything else you have stated here?
Yes sir, for that is as true as it can be.
306: You say it is true?
307: And you know it to be true?
308: Well I would like you to state how you know it is true?
By his being ordained and annointed, etc. – if it was not true he would not have been ordained or annointed.
309: And you testify that as a matter of fact, that was done by a revelation from God?
Well sir I told you a little while ago that the Lord gave his Spirit to his servants, and we have a right to reveive it when it is made known to us. He has said “shall I had the things I am about to do from my servants the prophets”, etc. He made known his will to Abraham, and has made known his will to Abraham, and has made known his will in many times and ages both before and since, and we are justified in expecting, and have as much right to expect that He will make known his power and Glory in these Latter days to HIs Church, as under any other dispensation. If we cannot look for and reveive that much of his mercy, I will tell you sir we are in a desperate condition, – but I tell you sir, we can get it for God had renewed his convenant with his people, and his gospel has the power of life unto life, or death unto death. His Son our Saviour in these latter days has the power, and the Father will sustain it, for is he not His beloved Son in whom we are to believe, unto our salvation, and the salvation of whomsoever shall believe and partake of the gift he brings us. I will not tell you a thing but what I know is true whether you believe it or do not believe it, – that does not make any difference to me sir.
310: Your friends will bear me out that I have respected your age, and I have taken no undue advantage of you?
You must not think sir that I have anything against you, for you are doing your duty I suppose. I have nothing against you sir at all.
311: Now you were at Alton at the time of the death or murder of Joseph Smith?
312: Where was he killed?
He was shot down at Carthage jail, and when he fell through the window out in the yard, there was a man that drew his knife and cut his head off, and that man was smote down with a pillar of fire from Heaven.
313: You know that to be a fact do you?
Well I was not there at the time, and there is no doubt but it is true.
314: At the time he was killed he left some effects, – some property did he not?
315: What was it?
He left his household goods and other property.
316: And also he left the Urim and Thummum?
Ah, my dear sir the Uim and Thummum was saved. They don’t let such things get out. There is no sue in your asking me that, – for that is safe enough, and you could not be made to understand any way, the unbelief that is in you would prevent your understanding.
317: Well he left that did he not?
Of course he did not take it with him.
318: Now do you know what became of that?
No sir I don’t know where it is.
319: Have you ever seen it since?
320: Has it been in the possession of any man since that time?
I do not know.
321: Is it in the possession of the re-organized?
I can’t tell you that for I don’ t know.
322: Is it in the possession of the Salt Lake Church?
The Church in Utah?
323: Yes sir.
I couldn’t tell you, but I don’t believe it is.
324: You don’t know whether or not it is in the possession of the Utah church, but you don’t believe it is?
Yes sir. I believe they are too wicked to have them, -but I don’t know.
325: It is on the earth some where?
Yes sir, but where it is I don’t know.
326: Can any one be a prophet and revelator?
327: Can any one be a prophet and revelator without it?
I do not know. That is a queer question to ask me.
328: Can any one be a prophet and revelator without the Urim and Thumnium?
Oh I do not know what the Lord will do. He can do just as he pleases about it you know, and he can give His / writ to whom He pleases, but he will not give it to any one unless they are pure in heart.
329: Are you acquainted with the book of Mormon and book of Covenants, and the other Holy books of the church?
I have read them, and do read them regularly.
330: Do they, or do they not teach that any one can be a prophet or revelator, unless they have the Urim and Thumnium?
No sir, I have never read it so.
331: Are you acquainted with, and are you familiar with what were the prevailing doctrines of the church at the time it was under the Presidency of the elder Joseph Smith?
Yes sir I know a great deal about the doctrines of the church then and now, according to what is taught in these books as the doctrine of the church.
332: Was one of the doctrines the doctrine of the baptism for the dead?
That is a scriptural doctrine.
333: Was that one of the doctrines taught in the old church under the Presidency of a Joseph Smith?
Yes sir they believed in the doctrine of baptism for the dead, and Paul believed in it too, He believed in it and taught it.
334: Does the re-organized church believe in it?
I do not know, I have never heard them say anything about it.
335: Are you not a priest of the re-organized church?
Yes sir and I am a preacher in it.
336: You testify that you are a priest and a preacher in the re-organized church?
337: And yet you do not know whether that church, – the re-organized church, – holds to the doctrine of baptizm for the dead?
I don’t know whether that has ever been taught in the re-organized church. I don’t know that it has, but I believe that it has not been taught in it. I will tell you honestly that I do not know that it is taught, – it is not taught in the re-organized church that I know of now.
338: You do not know although you are a priest and preacher in the
re-organized church, whether the doctrine of baptism for the dead is practiced in that church at the present time or not?
I do not believe that it is.
339: Is it, or is it not a doctrine of the church that was at one time taught in the church?
It was a doctrine of the church in the days of Joseph and martyr, but I have never heard it taught in the re-organized church.
340: I was a doctrine in the old church, but it is not practiced in the re-organized church?
Yes sir. I don’t know of its being practiced in the re-organized church, and it was not practiced in the old church for some time before Joseph was killed, except on a special occasion, as in my instance, and then only in compliance with a revelation authorizing its usage.
341: Was there a doctrine of this sort in the old church presided over by Joseph Smith, senior., the doctrine of the gathering of the saints at Nauvoo?
The what doctrine I don’t understand.
342: The doctrine of the gathering of the saints at Nauvoo?
The what doctrine I don’t understand.
343: That was the doctrine of the church?
Yes sir, and I have preached that many a time in the old church.
344: Explain what that is?
Explain what it is?
345: Yes sir?
What the doctrine of the gathering of the saints is?
346: Yes sir?
It is the doctrine directing the saints to gather together in holy places, and to be true to the doctrine of the covenants and teachings of God and the prophets.
347: What do you mean by that, – to hold their property in common?
348: That was not the doctrine, – teaching the holding of property in common?
No sir. I don’t know anything about that. It never was taught in the old church. It was never taught to my knowledge in the church.
349: Is that a doctrine of the re-organized church of Latter Day Saints?
I think not. I have never heard it preached, and I do not think it is either.
350: I asked you the question with reference to the re-organized church?
351: And your answer was applied to the re-organized church?
Yes sir, – to both the old and the re-organized church. I never heard the doctrine of holding property in common in either church.
352: Do you know what the doctrine of polygamy is?
I have heard it taught and despised it, and hate it.
353: I have no doubt of that?
I hate and despise it. It is a doctrine of the devil, – there is no question about that. I do not believe in it or uphold or countenance it in any way, for I believe in the words of the book “thou shalt have one wife”.
354: Where did you hear it taught?
I never heard Joseph teach that in his life.
355: Where did you hear it taught?
I heard Brigham Young teach it.
After Joseph was killed, and that was one reason I left there, for I did not believe in it.
358: Now you say that the doctrine of Polygamy was taught by Brigham Young at Nauvoo, after the death of Joseph Smith?
Yes sir, I heard Brigham Young teach it there, and I left there then for I did not believe in it, and I saw enough to convince me that it was time for me to leave.
359: For what length of time was it taught?
As long as they were there after it was commenced.
360: Did they commence preaching and teaching it immediately after Joseph Smith’s death?
No sir not right away after he died.
361: What length of time was it after Joseph’d death that the doctrine of polygamy was begun to be taught there?
Well they did not commence right away after he was killed, but they were preaching it at the time they went away from there.
362: When did they go away from there?
Well they started in 1846, and they kept going.
363: Did all the polygamists leave?
I don’t know where they all went.
364: Did they leave Nauvoo?
I don’t know whether they all left or not.
365: Well what is your best recollection as to that?
I could not say, for I don’t remember. I expect they all did though. I could not answer that question for I don’t know whether they did or not.
366: Did they practice polygamy as well as teach it before they left?
367: Answer the question?
What is the question?
368: I asked you if the practiced polygamy as well as preached it at Nauvoo before they left there?
In Joseph’s day?
369: No sir, after the death of Joseph Smith?
Well I rather think some of them did, though I would not swear to that.
370: I would like very well if you could state Mr. Whitehead which of these elders you have mentioned, – if any of the twelve I mean, – practiced polygamy, – or taught the practice of polygamy?
371: Can you answer that question?
Well you would probably know quite as well as I do.
372: Well I was asking you if you knew of any of the twelve whom you saw at Omaha who left Nauvoo?
After Joseph was killed they did.
373: Practiced polygamy at Nauvoo?
374: Which one of them did?
Brigham Young did. At least his wife said so, and I guess she told the truth. That is all I know about it, and I know she went crazy about it.
375: What about Heber Kimball?
Well I heard that too, but that is a thing that is hard to prove, for I did not see it and I don’t know that it was so.
376: Well, its prevalence was so great at Nauvoo that as a consequence you left the church?
Yes sir? I departed from the church as soon as I got my work finished, but from the church as soon as I got my work finished, but I always all the time thought that if the church could be rid of these impurities I would go back to it, and I did, for I knew all the time it was the true church, and the truth that Joseph taught. When I went to the winter quarters at Omaha I saw such work carried on there that I was sick from see it, and I determined to get out of it as quick as I could, and I did get out of it too.
377: Mr Whitehead were you at Nauvoo at the time the Expositor
office was destroyed?
The what was destroyed.
378: At the time that the Expositor office was destroyed, – were you at Nauvoo at that time?
379: You were there at that time?
I was. Yes sir I was there at that time.
380: Were you familiar with the paper?
Was I what, – with the paper? 381 (Written as 361)
380: Were you acquainted with, and familiar with the paper?
382: You may answer the question?
No sir I was not familiar with the paper, and had nothing to do with it, and never read one of them. I had nothing to do with it, but I knew there was a paper published there by that name.
383: You say you never read one of them?
No sir I did not.
384: By what authority was that paper published?
385: Answer the question?
I don’t know anything about that paper or what authority they had.
386: You do not know by what authority that paper was published?
387: Did you hear anything about the charge of polygamy being made against the church there at Nauvoo prior to the death of Joseph Smith?
388: Do you understand the question?
389: Well what is your answer?
Well I couldn’t say for I never heard anything about polygamy until after the time that Joseph was killed.
390: I asked you, or intended to ask you if you knew anything of your own knowledge about it?
No sir, nothing until after Joseph was killed.
391: Was it commonly reported that polygamy was preached in the church prior to the death of Joseph Smith?
I could not answer these questions satisfactorily to myself because I do not know anything about it.
392: Your recollection don’t serve you as to that matter?
No sir I don’t think that I ever heard such a thing, and all my life from my childhood up I hated and despised the cursed thing.
393: Did you know Austin Cowles?
394: You knew a man by that name?
395: And William Law?
I knew them both.
396: Were they members of the old church?
They were at one time. At one time they were members of the church.
397: Was that prior to the death of Joseph Smith?
NO sir they were not members of the church at the time of the death of Joseph. They were not in the church then. I don’t know much about Law whether he went away or not, but I know that he was a member of the church at one time.
398: Did they leave the church?
399: Yes sir?
No sir I don’t know anything about him. I don’t know where he went to.
400: Do you know when he left the church?
Oh yes sir I know when William Cole was cut off from the church.
401: What was he cut off from the church for?
402: What was William Cole expelled from the church for?
403: Was it adultery or polygamy?
It was not for polygamy, it was for adultery.
404: Now recurring for a moment to the ordination of young Joseph Smith, – I believe you stated that was done by and in consequence of a direct revelation?
405: To your knowledge it was a direct revelation from God?
Well now I have answered that question three or four times, and I don’t feel inclined or willing to answer it any more.
406: Well I believe you are right sir, – that is all right, – I will not insist upon your answering it now?
Yes sir, I think I am right.
407: Well now I wanted to ask the further question as to whether or not the church took any action upon the subject prior to the ordination of Joseph Smith?
Upon what subject?
408: Upon the subject of polygamy?
You mean before the ordination of young Joseph?
409: Yes sir?
No sir, there was no occasion for any action upon the question of polygamy, –
410: Did I say polygamy, – if I did it was an error, – I meant to ask the question as to whether or not the church as a body took any action upon the ordination of young Joseph, and prior to the time that he was ordained?
411: What action did they take?
They consented to it. The church consented to it.
412: What church?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
413: What body of that church took action upon that matter?
The church itself did.
414: Well in what manner did the church take action?
There were thousands of them. I can tell you just how that was if you will give me time.
415: Well tell me, and take all the time you want to, to do it so?
I can do that, – the High Council endorsed it, and then it was brought up before the whole body of the whole congregation, – the whole peole, and there were thousands there, and they agreed to it. The agreed to it, and endorsed it, and Joseph endorsed it, and laid his hands upon the head of young Joseph, and said he was appointed in his place.
416: Said who was appointed in his place?
That young Joseph was appointed in his place. He said you will be our leader and the first elder of the church he said (???).
417: Where was that done?
418: Where abouts in Nauvoo?
Right there in Nauvoo right at the east end of the temple.
419: That was in Nauvoo at the east end of the temple?
Yes sir, and there were thousands there and saw it I suppose.
420: Can you tell about how many people were present?
I cannot but I know there was a big congregation there, for we had big congregations in those days.
421: Well, how many about were there?
Well I should think there was as many as two or three thousand there.
422: Was there any record kept of it??
Yes sir, there was of course – there was a record of everything kept in those days, and these records, – everyone of them, – were taken to Salt Lake.
423: Were you present?
What is that?
424: Were you present on that occassion?
I was present sir.
425: Was there a vote taken on that question?
Yes sir there was a vote taken. They consented to it.
426: Who consented to it?
The people did.
427: Was there a vote taken?
Yes sir, they consented to it.
428: Was there a vote taken?
Yes sir, I have told you three times there was.
429: How was that vote taken?
By raising their right hand I think.
430: The vote was taken by raising their right hands?
431: Of the people present?
432: Was there a negative vote taken?
Yes sir, but nobody voted in the negative.
433: How many votes was there in the affirmative?
It was unanimous for all that any body could see, and I suppose there was nearly three thousand people there, and perhaps more than that?
434: Who took the vote?
Joseph asked them.
435: Who called them over, – who called the vote over?
He had been prezching, and he called up young Joseph and said he was his successor in office.
436: What else did he say, if anything?
He said “I am going to rest”.
437: Was that the first notice the people had?
No sir, it was known before, but that was the first public call that was made.
438: Then the people did not assemble that day especially for that purpose?
It was going to be brought up that day.
439: The question of the announcement of the successorship of young Joseph was going to be called up that day?
440: Did the people know it was going to be called or brought up that day? Did they know it was to be called up that day, and did they come there for that purpose, or did they come there to attend the ordinary church service?
No sir, they knew it, – but we wee used to them, – to these big congregations in those days anyhow.
441: Was that action taken price to the ordination of Joseph, or after the ordination?
It was after the ordination.
442: There was no such action taken as was taken there that day when the first was announced to the people, – there was no action of that character taken prior to the ordination of Joseph?
No sir, not by the mass of the people.
443: Have you read the first edition of the book of covenants through.
Yes sir, I have.
444: Do you recognize this book I now hand you?
Yes sir, that was the first I had. I don’t know whether there was one before that or not. I never saw it until 1848, for I was not in the country.
445: Is there any other edition than the first edition?
I don’t know whether there is or not. I don’t know whether it was the first one or not, but I got it in 1848.
446: Have you studied it thoroughly?
Well I have read it, and that is enough.
447: Are you acquainted with all its doctrines?
448: All its doctrines,-are you acquainted with all its doctrines?
Well now I could not keep them all in my memory,-that is impossible for me to do, but I think I know about what it is, and what is in it.
449: Now you identified a book here this morning as the book of doctrine and Covenants I believe,-you identified the book as the book of doctrine and covenants?
450: And do you now say that that is the same book and contains the same doctrines as the book that you first say and read in 1848?
It is as far as I can remember.
451: Well, do you say it is or is not the same?
It is as far as I can remember. It is as far as I know I say I don’t know any difference in them. I have read it through more that once but I can’t remember everything that is in it, but to the best of my recollection they are the same.
452: Can you testify that this book put in testimony here to-day, as the book of Doctrine and Covenants, contains precisely the same doctrines as the book which your first read?
I believe it does, the same doctrine, but of course I can’t specify every sentence that is in it, but I believe that the two books are the same,-I believe they are exactly the same.
453: You have not read this book through,-the book of Doctrine and Covenants?
The book of Covenants,-yes sir I have many a time.
454: This book that has been introduced in evidence here?
What edition is that?
This is the 1865 edition is it not?
455: Yes sir, this is the edition of 1835?
The one I had was published in 1848,-I have read that one through over and over again.
456: The one of the edition of 1848?
457: Do you know whether or not this book contains the same doctrines as the one that you have read through?
I think it does.
458: Do you know that it does?
As far as I recollect it does.
459: How far have you examined this?
Well I have read the book of Covenants through, and I suppose this is the same. I don’t see anything that is different from the one I read.
460: How far have you examined this book?
Well I could tell you if I knew whether it was the one I had received at the first or not. If I knew that I could tell you.
461: Well my question is, how far have your read that book that is now in your hand?
Well I don’t know that there is any difference in them.
462: My question is how far have you read it,-now that is the question for you to answer?
I have read that book of Covenants more than once.
463: Have you read that identical book through that you hold in your hands now?
Well I believe that to-day is the first time I have had this book in my hands. That is the book that is used,-the book itself I haven’t handled before to-day, bu that refers to the book itself, but the principles it contains is a different thing.
464: Well now, will you please state how far you have read this book that you have there in your hands?
I have read the book of covenants through time and again.
465: But this book, how far have you read it?
I can’t answer that question so far as the individual book is concerned
466: Is it not a fact that you have not read this book at all?
Well I guess I have.
467: Well isn’t it a fact Mr. Whitehead, that this book you have not read at all?
I say that it is a fact that I have read the revelations in this book, but it was in another publication, for this book has been published many times.
468: Have you read this book at all?
Yes sir, I believe I have.
469: This identical book?
Yes sir, I have read the same matter that is in it.
470: How do you know that it was the same matter?
I know it.
471: How do you know it?
I know it just the same way that I know other things. These books are all alike, you can’t find two that are different even if they are different publications or editions. Of course though I could not tell whether these two books are the same without I compared them, but I think you will find they are the same.
472: Well certainly not. I thought that was the face. Now here is another book called the Book of Mormon?
473: Did you ever see this book before?
Well I could not say that I saw that individual book, but I have seen a great of the Book of Mormon, and have it now, and have read it time and again.
474: Did you ever see this particular book before today?
Well that is a very strange question. I can’t answer these questions. I have seen the Book of Mormon thousands of times I suppose.
475: Well I know that, but my question is simply if you have seen this particular book before today?
I would not say that I have seen that identical volume.
476: Have you read this book that I hold in my hand there?
Well now I can’t answer that question. I don’t know how to answer that question. I have read the matter that is it time and time again, but it might have been in another volume, and it might be that I have read it in that. I can’t say, for I don’t know whether I did or not, for I have read out of a great many of these books. It might have been in another volume, and in another edition for all I know, but the matter is the same.
477: How do you know it was the same matter?
How is that?
478: How do you know it was the same matter that was in the book or books that you read, as is in this one?
Well I have read the Book of Mormon through and through, but whether it was that identical book or not that book I couldn’t say. I couldn’t say as to that, but I have read it through and through and they are always alike, and I know the Book of Mormon is true.
479: Well as I understand you, you have never read this book?
I cannot answer that question.
480: You cannot answer that question?
481: Very well, we will leave it there then. Now have you ever read the Palmyra edition of the Book of Mormon?
No I haven’t. I have read the Book of Mormon, that is to say it is the same reading matter, the test is the same I expect, but I can’t say that I have read the text of both and they are the same.
482: You have also identified a book here called the Times and Seasons?
483: You have seen that before?
Yes sir, and I have them at home every one of them.
484: Did you ever see this book here before?
The Times and Seasons?
485: Yes sir?
Well yes, of course I have. I have the Times and Seasons, the whole six volumes.
486: Did you ever see this book that I hold in my hand before?
I don’t know that I ever saw this identical book before, but I have seen the Times and Seasons, and had them, and read them, and have them now.
487: Did you ever read the inspired translation of a Holy Spirit?
488: In the old church?
Yes sir, and I have it now.
489: This translation of the bible (handing witness a book)?
Yes sir I have read it, but not in the old church, or in Joseph’s day I mean, for the reason that it was not published then. It hadn’t been printed then.
490: Why had it not been printed?
Because it was in the form of manuscript. It was in the manuscript at the time he died, and it was found afterwards and published.
491: When was it published?
It was published by the re-organized church. Mrs. Ala Smith had the manuscript, and the Salt Lake Mormons found out that she had it, and they offered her fifty thousand dollars ($50,000.00) for it, if she would deliver it up to them but she would not do it.
492: Do you know who made the inspired translation?
Yes sir, I know how it was done?
493: Well, how was it done, – just explain yourself?
It was a dream. It was translated by what we have been talking about, – the Urim and Thummum.
494: In whose hands?
In the hands of Joseph the Martyr, – in the hands of he that he killed, – Joseph the Martyr.
495: Now do you state here upon your oath that the inspired translation of the Holy Scriptures which you have identified here, was made by Joseph Smith the man that was killed at Nauvoo?
I did not say that.
496: You do not understand the question?
Well what is it?
497: I asked you if you stated here upon your oath that the translation of the Holy Scriptures which you have identified here was made by Joseph Smith, the man that was killed at Nauvoo?
What was the question?
498: I asked you if you stated it s a fact upon your oath that the translation of the Holy Scriptures which you identified here, was made by Joseph Smith the man that was killed at Nauvoo?
I said he was killed at Carthage, – Joseph Smith was killed at Carthage.
499: Well Joseph Smith the man that was killed at Carthage, – do you state it as a fact on your oath that the translation of the Holy Scriptures which you hold in your hand now was made by him?
I do sir. Yes sir, that is a bact. They were translated by him with the Urim and Thummum.
500: Please look at the preface of this book which I now hand you, – please read the preface of this book which I now hand you, and say if that is the book that was translated?
“The Holy Scriptures translated and corrected by the spirit of revelation, by Joseph Smith, junior, the seer. Published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Joseph Smith; I.L. Rogers; K. Robinson Publishing committee, 1863. Now that is the way it was, – It was translated by Joseph the seer, as it says, and how could that possibly have been done without the Urim and Thummum.
501: That translation was made by Joseph Smith the son of the man
that was killed at Nauvoo?
It was made by him. I did not say this Joseph.
502: Well read that preface again and see what it says?
It says by Joseph Smith junior the seer.
503: Well don’t that mean this Joseph?
No sir. Recollect that Joseph the Martyrs father was living at that time, and he was called junior, and he was Joseph Smith, junior at that time for his father was living still. You did not understand me possibly, but that was the way it was.
504: Have you read this book call the Times and Seasons?
Have I read it all the time?
505: No, have you read this book I hold in my hand called the Times and Seasons which you identified this morning?
Yes sir, I probably have. I guess I have read them all. I have them all and I have read them.
506: Have you read this book?
I read it very often (witness being dear, evidently does not understand the question asked him).
507: Have you read this book which I now hand you?
I can’t say that I have read that identical book, but I have read other books of the same kind, – the same issue, – there never was but one issue of the paper,, – that is it was not re-printed, and of course as I have them all and have read them, I have read a duplicate of this.
508: Did you ever read in the Times and Seasons, any history of the life of Joseph Smith who was killed at Nauvoo?
Yes sir, I have read a great deal in that book.
509: Did you ever read in that the history written by Joseph Smith senior?
510: Read the statement that after the translation of the Book of Mormon, that he had to give up the Urim and Thumnum?
511: Do you remember remember reading about that?
I don’t remember everything about that. Do you mean about translating the Book of Mormon?
512: Yes sir?
He translated off them plates by the gift and power of God sir, and by the interpreters, –
513: Did you read in that history as written by Joseph Smith senior, that he gave up the Urim and Thumnum?
There is an Urim and Thumnum, but there are different kinds that the Lord has, and as he only had them to interpret he did give them up, – he gave them up and the very plates that were translated he gave up again to the very angel that he took them from, and that angel has hid them, but they will come again in the Lords time, of that you can depend sir.
514: Well now Mr Whitehead, you have stated both in your direct, and in your cross examination, that you became a member of the church in England?
515: And that you came across the waters, and landed at New Orleans and went from there to Nauvoo?
Yes sir. That is correct.
516: And that you became a member of the church at Nauvoo?
I said I was a member when I went there.
517: You joined the church primarily in England?
518: And you brought your certificate and joined the church at Nauvoo?
519: And that the church became so corrupt there that you left it?
520: It became so corrupt, – that is the church at Nauvoo became so corrupt that you left it?
Yes sir, but not at that time.
521: It was afterwards that you left it on account of its corruption?
Yes sir, long afterwards.
522: When was it that you left the church on account of its corruption?
It was after Joseph was willed.
523: After the death of Joseph you left the Church?
Yes sir. It was some time after he was killed that I left it though, – it was not right away that I left it. I left it as soon as I finished my labors as secretary of Joseph, and made my report.
524: Now then Mr Whitehead is this church to which you belong the same church to which you belonged at Nauvoo?
525: You say it is the same church?
It is. It is sir, and it teaches the same doctrine that Joseph taught.
526: The same doctrines that who taught?
It is the same church, and it teaches the same doctrine that Joseph the Martyr taught. It teaches the same identical doctrine.
527: Well now answer my question directly, ye, or no, is the Church, – the Re-organized church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to which you belong now the same church to which you belonged at Nauvoo?
528: Is it the same church to which you belonged at Nauvoo and which you left on account of its corruption?
It is the same church was that was before it fell into corruption, and teaches the same doctrine.
529: Now I will ask you this question, – Is the re-organized church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to which you now belong, the same church as the church at Nauvoo was when you left it?
No sir. When I left the church at Nauvoo it was corrupt, but this church is not corrupt now.
530: This church you say in not corrupt?
531: Whish church is that?
The re-organized church is not corrupt, but the church at Nauvoo was when I left it.
532: This church, – this Re-organized church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not corrupt?
533: And that church at Nauvoo is?
534: Now you say that this corruption crept into the church at Nauvoo after the death of Joseph Smith?
535: Now is this church the same as that church was at the time you left it?
536: It is not?
No sir. 537 (Question and answer are missing) 538 (Question and answer are missing)
539: Wherein do they differ?
That was the apostate church, – they had denied their faith and principles, and this church is a reorganization of the old church again, or the true church again as it existed in the days of Joseph the Martyr.
540: They apostated, and denied their principles, and this church you claim is a reorganization of the old church again?
541: You have heard the elder Joseph Smith preach, have you not?
He that was the Martyr?
542: Yes sir?
Oh yes, I have heard him preach many and many a time.
543: Did you ever hear him announce this doctrine, -?
I don’t know what it is.
544: Well here it is, – “There shall be no more baptisms for the dead until the ordinances has been attended to in the front of the Lords
house, and the church shall not hold another General Conference until they can meet in said house, for thus saith the Lord”? Did you ever hear the elder Joseph Smith annouce that doctrine?
I have heard of it, but I did not hear it.
545: You say you have heard of it but you never heard it?
I have heard of it. This occured in America before I came here.
546: Did you ever witness any baptisms for the dead before you, – I mean to say, did you ever witness any baptisms for the dead after you came to Nauvoo?
I was not there until 1842.
547: Well I said, after you came to Nauvoo did you ever witness any baptisms for the dead?
Yes sir, I did one, and I will tell you why if you want to know.
548: Well I want to know?
Well it was because it was for myself. There is no harm in telling that. I will tell you how it came about. Now the Lord did not say absolutely that there should be no more baptisms for the dead, for he could give his permission to his servant by revelation to do ordinance of baptism for the dead. He could give permission for any one to be baptized if it was His will, and when I went there to Nauvoo I was very much troubled because of that, and why, – because I wanted to be baptized for my father.
549: You were very much troubled because of what?
Because of the fact that baptism for the dead had been stopped, and there could be no more baptized without a direct commission or revelation from Heaven. I was talking to one of the High Council about this, and told him how sorry I was, and he said, well he would “speak to Joseph about it, he can ask the Lord about it, and the Lord may give you the ptivClege, but you can’t be baptized without it”, and I will speak to Joseph about it myself”, and he did, and Joseph did enquire, and the Lord did give him the privelege to be baptized for my father, and that is the only baptism for the dead that I ever saw, Now there are the facts, and you can make out of it what you have a mind to, but that is the truth.
550: That is the way that came about?
Yes sir, and you can make out of it just what you like.
551: Have you been in the temple at Nauvoo?
Well yes sir, I have been in it many a time, for I use to measure all the stone for them, and the carpenter work and all that.
552: Was there a font in the temple for the baptism of the dead?
Yes and it stood on twelve oxen cut out of stone.
553: And you never saw that font used?
No sir I don’t think it was ever used, because Joseph was killed and the temple was never finished.
554: Was there ever a General conference of the church held at Nauvoo while you were there?
What is that?
555: Was there ever a General Conference of the church held at Nauvoo while you were there?
Yes sir, of course there was. There was one every half year then.
556: Every six months at that time there was a general conference?
557: That is they held conferences at that place, – at that point, – at that time, where did they hold them? Where did they hold them, – where did they hold them?
Where did they hold them, – where did they hold the conferences?
558: Yes sir?
They would generally hold them in the grove, for there was no building that was large enough to hold them in, and the temple was not finished.
559: In holding these conferences was it not in conflict with this doctrine or revelation that conferences were not to be held?
560: Answer the question?
Well I don’t know about that. I don’t think I understand your question.
561: Well if they did hold conferences, which you say they did?
Yes sir we had conferences.
562: Was it not in conflict with this doctrine preached by Joseph concerning conferences and baptism for the dead which I have just quoted to you?
I never heard it preached at the conferences.
563: Then you don’t think it was in conflict with the doctrine?
I used to go to the conference.
564: You do not think it was in conflict with the doctrine preached by Joseph? (witness evidently does not understand the question). Well let that go then, I will ask you now if you remember a visit that was made to you by Aleck H. Smith in 1884?
Do I remember a visit that was made to me in ’84 by Aleck H. Smith?
565: Yes sir?
Tell me what the visit was about?
566: A visit that he made to you when you were living at Alton?
I lived there at that time.
567: Well do you remember the occasion of a visit that Aleck H. Smith paid to you while you lived at Alton about the year 1884?
He has been at my house different times while I lived there.
568: Well when he was there at your place while you lived at Alton, have you ever talked over church matters with him?
Oh yes sir in a general way we did, but I could not tell what all we talked about. He used to come to my house at different times when I lived there.
569: Do you remember that you and Mr Smith conversed over, or about the revelation of Joseph as to the length of time from that time when the Saints would return to Missouri to build the temple?
We might have talked about it, but I don’t recollect it if we did.
570: You don’t recollect it?
No sir, I don’t recollect it. We might have talked that over, but I don’t recollect it if we did.
571: Did Joseph ever have any revelation, or announce any revelation
as to how long it would be from the first organization of the church, until the temple at Independence, Missouri, would be built?
No sir, I don’t remember hearing him say anything about it.
572: You did not hear him say that,-you have no recollection of hearing him say that?
No sir, I don’t believe I did. I don’t think I ever heard him say the time. Now I want you to understand that I speak as I recollect, and I don’t recollect hearing him say anything about that at all,-that is between Alexander and me, although we might have talked about it,-I don’t know whether we did or not.
573: You refer now to conversations had between yourself and Aleck H. Smith?
574: Were you acquainted with the organization of the church at Nauvoo Illinios when you were there?
Well I don’t know what you mean be “being acquainted with the organization” of the church while I was there.
575: I mean by that the kind of an organization it had?
Yes sir I was, and it had the same kind of an organization that the re-organized church has.
576: Well will you please state what kind of an organization the church had?
Well I don’t know that I can.
577: Well I would like for you to state how it was organized if you please?
I can’t recollect all the minutes, and I don’t believe it would be right for me to attempt it. I don’t think it would be right for me to attempt it because I can’t tell everything about it.
578: Well I only ask you to state it as far as you know?
Well I don’t like to try to tell a thing that I don’t know just right. I don’t like to undertake a thing that I can’t accomplish, and If I could remember everything about it, I would do it in a moment, but I can’t do that.
579: Can you state whether or not at that time, while you were at Nauvoo, there was in the church such an office as District President?
580: Yes sir?
Yes sir, there was.
581: What was the function of that office?
Well you must not expect that I can commence and explain everything about the organization and the duties of the different officers that were in the church,-that would take up too much time, and I don’t know that I am able to do it any way. It is not reasonable to ask me and I cannot do it.
582: Are you just as sure about that fact as you are about any of these other facts that you have testified to?
About what fact?
583: About the fact that there was such an office in the organization as it existed at Nauvoo in the days of Joseph Smith that of District President?
584: You are as sure of that fact,-?
I know there was.
585: Are you sure of that fact, as you are of any other of the facts to which you have testified?
586: Did you at that time have a book called the rules of order?
587: Have you ever seen that book?
Yes sir, and I have read in it some.
588: Where is that book now?
What, my book?
589: In the book of the rules of order, – it don’t matter whether it is your book or some other book, – do you know where there is one of them? (witness does not answer, and it is evident that he does not understand the question that asked him). At the time you were with the church at Nauvoo Illinois, did the church have such a book as the book called the “Rules of Order.”
Well I can’t answer that, for I don’t know about that. I don’t recollect about that.
590: Does the present church, – the re-organized church, – have such a book?
There is a book called the “Rules of Order” to regulate matters in different ways.
591: Does the e-organized church have such a book?
I don’t know how to answer that, for I don’t know every book that is going. I couldn’t read every one of the, if I was to read all the time.
592: Your answer is that you don’t know?
I don’t know why I should be called on to answer these questions.
593: Well never mind Father whitehead just listen to his questions and try to understand them, and answer them?
594: Does the present re-organized church have a book called the “Rules of Order”?
I know there is a book that regulates affairs when they are given us, – it is to have order and not confusion.
594: Is it the same book that you had when you were at Nauvoo, Illinois?
I never saw one there, and I don’t recollect that we had one there. There might have been one there, but I did not have it.
595: You don’t know whether or not there was one at Nauvoo?
No sir I don’t know whether there was or not.
596: Do you have a system of rules of representation in the re-organized church?
Rules of what?
597: Rules of representation, – did you have a system of rules of representation in this church?
I never saw one.
598: Is there a system of representation in the church to which you now belong?
Well now I want to understand what you mean, – do you mean in regard to when the conference is?
599: Yes sir?
Why yes sir, they have delegates sent from all the branches.
600: Well if there is a system what is it?
It is a system that represents the branches.
601: What is the system of representation?
Suppose you were the President of a branch, and you were ruling that branch, and there was a conference to be held, you would have to send delegates from that branch to represent it in the conference.
602: Do delegates represent branches, or do they simply represent individuals members of the branch?
Branches and members are the same.
603: How many members are entitled to a delegate?
How many are what?
604: How many members are entitled to a delegate?
Oh that varies, some times it is one member and sometimes there is another, and I don’t know what it is now.
605: Now did you have the same system in the church at Nauvoo?
We had the same system exactly that we have in the reOorganized church.
606: The same system as to representation for delegates?
Yes sir, as to delegates it was just exactly the same.
607: Did you have conferences the same then as you have now?
Yes sir, just exactly the same. We might not have them as often, it don’t say they shall be kept as often, but the conferences were conducted in the same way.
608: Did they, when you were a member of the church at Nauvoo, allow lay members and sisters to act as delegates?
Well I don’t know.
609: You never saw it?
No sir, not in the church at Nauvoo.
610: Does the re-organized church allow lay members and sisters to act as delegates?
If they do I don’t know it I have never seen it.
611: Well I believe that completes the cross examination of this witness, -No it doesn’t. I have a few further questions to ask. Did you know one William Marks at Nauvoo?
Yes sir I knew him.
612: Who was he?
Who was he, -why he was a brother in the church.
613: Who was he?
Why he was a high priest, a member of the high council, and President of the stake. He was President of the stake there at Nauvoo.
614: What became of him?
Why I believe he is dead.
615: Where did he go from Nauvoo?
He went up north some where from Nauvoo.
616: Do you know where he went?
No sir I don’t know where he went for I never paid any attention to it.
617: You stated a while ago the names of the twelve that you met at Salt Lake, -at Omaha I mean?
I did not say they were all there. I did not say the twelve were all there at Omaha.
618: Well I wanted to ask you now whether William Richards was not one of them?
619: He was one of the twelve?
620: Did you meet him there at Omaha?
He was there. I saw him there.
621: When was Amasa Lyman appointed?
I don’t recollect. He was one of the twelve afterwards, but whether he was one of the twelve at the time they were at Omaha I could not say. There was twelve of them, and if in giving their names I have made any mistake it was him. I don’t know either whether I spoke of William Richards as one of them, but William Richards was one of them.
622: In the old organization at Nauvoo, Illinois, was there not what they called stakes? By Mr Kelley,- “We object to that question for the reason that it is
incompetent, irrelevant and immeterial, and on the further ground that the testimony introduced here shows that there is and were such things provided for in the new organization or in the re-organized incorporation. By Mr Southern, –
623: Was there in the old organization at Nauvoo suck a thing as “stakes”?
Yes sir. Nauvoo was a stake, but there was a great many different districts, and I believe that Kirtland was once a stake also, – probably it was the first stake.
624: Kirtland was a stake you say?
I don’t know, – I say probably it was, but I don’t know that it was.
625: What is a stake?
626: What was a stake?
It was a land or country sir for the children of of the Lord to dwell in, – it could be a city though as well.
627: Then the re-organized church has stakes also?
No sir, I do not think they have.
628: Father Whitehead I want to ask you a question or two. Now in your cross examination you said you went to Council Bluffs, or Omaha, I believe it was, – I will withdraw the Council bluffs part of the question, – well you said you went to Omaha?
629: And helped pack the records of the church there?
630: And that the twelve were there?
Yes sir, there was a portion of them there. They were not all thee but there were some of them there, – but there was a lot of them there.
631: Well how many of the twelve of the old original church, as you understand it, ever went with the faction that went to Salt Lake Valley?
I don’t know I don’t think. I know there was some of them never went. There was John A. Beach, he never went and William Smith didn’t go. I don’t recollect now who went and I cannot tell.
632: What about Lyman White?
No he did not go either. He was another one that did not go.
633: Lyman White did not go either you say?
No sir, – not that I know of. If he went I never heard anything about it.
634: Now were all of the twelve that did go to Salt Lake Valley at Omaha at the time you were there?
What is that?
635: Were all of the twelve that did go with Brigham Young to Salt Lake there at Omaha when you went there?
I don’t think they were all there at one time.
636: Now at the time you were there at Omaha did you understand that that church that was there was the original church, or an apostate church?
Did I understand it to be the original church, or what?
637: Or the apostate church?
I understood it to be an apostate church.
638: Well I will try and not make it leading, – I will withdraw that and ask you what the fact is about that being the original church or an apostate church, or what kind of a church it was if you know. By Mr Southern, – “The question is objected because it calls for an
opinion of the witness, and the witness has not been shown to be an expert in church matters”. By Mr Kelley, –
639: You may state what kind of a church it was?
What kind of a church it was?
640: Yes sir.
Well that would be hard to say. It wasn’t the church it had been in Joseph’s day.
641: The question is whether you know whether that was the original church, or whether it was an apostate church, or the kind of a church it was?
Well I think it was an apostate church for they did not carry out the true principles that were taught by Joseph the Martyr, and there was all manner of abomination committed among them there, and I should consider it was an apostate church, for they taught these abominations and practiced them openly.
642: Was that the reason you retired from the church?
It was. It was sir, because I could not stand that wickedness, and it was something Joseph never taught and was not taught in in the church in his day.
643: Were those people at Omaha teaching and practicing a doctrine and practices similiar to the doctrine that had been taught and practiced at Nauvoo prior to 1844?
Well I will tell you I don’t know what they taught, but I will tell you that all the time I was at Nauvoo I never heard it discoursed, – I think they were given up to something else besides preaching there at Omaha from what I saw and heard while I was there.
644: Were they practicing the same things that had been practiced in Nauvoo Illinois, prior to 1844 and during the life time of Joseph Smith?
No sir, they were practicing quite the contrary.
645: Now did you withdraw from the faith of the church as it was before 1844, or simply from the membership of the church as you saw it Omaha when you were there in 1847?
I withdrew from the church, – that church there, – on account of its wickedness. It was because they had become so corrupt and wicked that I could not tolerate it, so I withdrew, but the original faith I believed in it always, all the time through everything from the day I was baptized, and do yet. Now shall I tell you fully what I left them for?
646: Well no, for that don’t matter in this case. That is all Father Whitehead.
647: Now Mr Whitehead I will ask you this morning the date when you first read, or got hold of the Doctrine and Covenants?
When I first got it?
648: Yes sir?
I got it in England. It was in 1838.
649: You got it in 1838?
650: In England?
Yes sir, the time that the twelve were there, and before they returned back. I don’t remember the date or the month, but it was in 1838 any way that I got it.
651: Well I don’t care about that, but in giving your testimony yesterday
you fixed the time at 1848?
Well it was a mistake there for it was in ’38 that I first saw it, at the time they were in England.
652: Now in your testimony on cross examination yesterday, you stated that you, by direction of the administrator of Joseph Smith, turned over to the twelve, or some of the twelve, all of the church records?
653: You did that by direction of the administrator of Joseph Smith?
Yes sir, I turned over all the papers and records that I had but of course I did not have them all. I don’t know anything at all about what the other men had,-I only know what I had myself and I turned them over.
654: You say you don’t know anything about what the other men had?
655: Did you as the secretary of Joseph Smith, have the custody and the control of the records of the membership of the church? Did you have the charge and custody of that part of the church records?
656: Who, if you know, was the person who had the charge and custody of that part of the church records?
I think James Sloane was the man that had that. He had something to do with the records, and that was what he had I think.
657: So the records you refer to as being the records you had charge of, were the records of Joseph Smith’s private office?
Yes sir, and the records that belonged to the building of the temple and all that, and the records of deeds and I recorded them, or a great many of them, and I had the record in my office.
658: Do you know Mr. Whitehead, whether or not in the office of Joseph Smith, at the time you were his secretary, whether there was,-that is whether or not the original manuscripts of the Holy Scriptures were there?
No sir they were not in his possession,-they were in possession of his wife, Emma Smith.
659: Was that also turned over to the administrator?
No sir that was never turned over to the administrator. We did not turn it over to any one for it did not belong to the church. She never turned it over until she turned it over to the re-organized church to get it published.
660: Now in your testimony yesterday you referred to the fact that the selection of Joseph Smith by his father as his successor in office, an of the confirmation of that selection. Now how much time elapsed from the time of his selection until the public announcement was made?
Well it took place on Wednesday evening, and on the Sunday following after the sermon was delivered he made that declaration.
661: What was the general talk among the members of the church there in Nauvoo, so far as you know, as to who was to be the successor of Joseph Smith after his death?
Why the general belief and impression was that it was to be Joseph Smith his son.
662: What, if any action, did the twelve take with reference to that question?
What was the question?
663: I asked you that, if any, action the twelve took with reference to the question of the selection of young Joseph to succeed his father?
What action the twelve took in their own quorom I do not know as I was not there as their clerk to see.
664: What did they say, if anything outside of their own quorom?
Well I will tell what Brigham Young said to me, and different ones said the same thing at different times. Brigham Young said to me, – he said they had the church in winter quarters at Omaha at the conference at Kainesville.
665: Well I don’t care about anything, -I don’t care anything about the conference at Kainesville or anything of that kind, – just state what he said to you?
Is that what you want, – just what Brigham Young said to me?
666: Yes sir just go right ahead and tell all he said to you?
Well Brigham Young said to me, – “I am not the leader of the church, nor the prophet of the church. We know who that is, it is Joseph the son of Joseph the martyr”. I said “yes brother Brigham, that is the one,” and he said “it is”.
667: Can you give the names of the parties who were present at the time that Joseph Smith selected his son as his successor?
Well I gave them yesterday as far as I knew.
668: Well the question is withdrawn?
669: You spoke of Reynolds Cahoon, or Calhoun and said that he was present at the time of the ordination of Joseph Smith?
670: How do you spell that name?
Cahoon I think. I think that was the way it was spelled.
671: Now in your testimony yesterday you referred to the fact of this ordination, do you mean by that the ordination to priesthood, or simply a setting apart as his successor?
He was ordained to the same position his father was in, to be the leader of the church, – the first elder of the church.
672: Do you mean that he was ordained a high priest at that time, or simply as his fathers successor?
He was ordained as his fathers successor.
673: I guess the question is leading, and I will withdraw it. Now what do you mean by the term “ordination”, do you mean ordination to the high priesthood, or an ordination simply of successorship?
674: If you do not mean that, what do you mean?
I mean that he was ordained to the same position that his father was in, – to be his fathers successor and to hold the same position his father held thith all his power and authority, – whenever he was called.
675: When was that authority to commence, – when was his authority to commence, – then or at the death of his father?
He was to take his position when the Lord manifested to him on earth from Heaven that the time had come for him to take his position.
676: Well that is all the questions I have to ask you.
677: Will you state what position in the church was held by Joseph Smith the martyr, – I use the term “martyr” to identify him, so you may know to whom I refer?
Yes sir that is right for he is a martyr.
678: Well what position did he occupy in the church, – will you state the position which he held?
What position Joseph the Martyr held?
679: Yes sir?
Well I think that is pretty generally known.
680: That is so perhaps right here, but then the United States Circuit Judge may not know it, for he is the one who will have to decide these questions, and we want to get it in such shape that he will be able to do so?
He was a prophet, seer and revelator to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
681: Was he in the priesthood?
Yes sir, he held a priesthood.
682: What priesthood did he hold?
He held the Melchesidek (???) priesthood.
683: Did that constitute him the presiding high priest over the entire priest hood of the church?
684: Do you understand the question?
Yes sir, but I object to answering it, for I don’t think that I am bound to answer every question that may be asked me about what priesthood it is. I told you it was the Melchesidk priesthood, and you can look in the bible and find out what priesthood that is for yourself.
685: Read the question to him, and see if he understands it. (question repeated to witness)?
Why yes it does. It makes him a high priest. That is the fulness of that priesthood.
686: State whether this ordination by Joseph the Martyr was not an ordination to be prophet, priest and king?
I don’t under stand you.
687: Well I will state the question again. I asked you if this ordination by Joseph the Martyr was not an ordination to be a prophet, priest and king?
I do not understand it so.
688: State if you know by what authority Joseph the Martyr ordained or attempted to ordain his son to execute the office which he
689: Will you answer the question?
I answered that yesterday, and I don’t believe there is any law that will compel me to answer these questions over and over again.
690: Well you can answer it again Father Whitehead, – just answer it again if you can?
Well let him ask it again.
691: I asked you to state if you knew by what authority it was that Joseph the Martyr ordained, or attempted to ordain his son Joseph to execute the office which he held in the church, by what authority he attempted to ordain or delegate that power to his son?
It was by a revelation from Heaven. Now that was his authority, and that is what I told you yesterday.
692: Was the ordination to which you have just referred the usual form of ordination followed or practice in the church?
I can’t answer that for I don’t know anything more about it than that I have told you.
693: Did you ever see the same kind of ordination practiced in the church?
Only the one time that I have mentioned.
694: By what authority did Hiram Smith do the anointing?
By what authority?
695: Yes sir, by what authority did Hiram Smith do the annointing?
Well that is a queer question to ask me. I can’t answer that question.
696: Well it is a fundamental question however queeer it may seem to you, and I would like to have you answer it if you can? Do I understand you to say that you don’t know by what authority Hiram Smith did that?
I can’t say. I don’t know where Hiram Smith got his authority from, but his authority was all right.
697: Is there any thing in any of the books that authorizes the use of oil in an ordination?
698: Is there any authority in any of the books authorizing the use of oil in an ordination?
699: Where is it?
All that I can refer to a any authority is in regard to Aaron being annointed, and the oil ran down on the skirts of his garment we read.
700: Was the word “king”, used at any time during that ordination?
No sir, I don’t recollect hearing the word “king” used at all. If it was used I did not hear it.
701: Did you hear about the year 1844, – 1843 or 1844 of what was termed the “king Follett” sermon preached?
There was a “King Follett” preached, but I don’t recollect about the time of it.
702: Did you hear the sermon preached?
Well now that is a strange question to ask me, – what I have heard. I believe I ought to be asked what I know, and not what I hear.
703: He is just asking you if you heard that sermon preached, called the “King Follett” sermon?
I did hear it preached.
704: Did Joseph the Martry preach the plurality of the gods in that sermon, – did he teach that doctrine in that sermon, or did he not?
That sermon was published.
705: Answer the question please?
What was the question?
706: Did Joseph Smith in that sermon teach the doctrine of the plurality of the gods?
He did not that I know of. If he did I did not hear it, but I was not there all the time he was preaching for I was called out for a time.
707: In your examination in chief you stated that it was the general talk and impression there at Nauvoo that Joseph Smith, the son of Joseph the Martry, should be the successor of Joseph the Martyr?
Yes sir that was generally understood and believed.
708: Did you say that was the general understanding and belief?
Yes sir I believe it was. I never heard any dissent from it at all. If there was any dissent I never heard it at all.
709: Was that before or after the ordination of which you spoke?
Well that was after Joseph had made his declaration that he was his successor in office.
710: To whom did he make that declaration?
Why to the people.
711: To what part of the people?
The people, – the congregation.
712: How many were present at the time the declaration was made?
I don’t know how many were there, – there might be three thousand there, – there night have been more than that there, for we had big congregations in those days.
713: Where were these people assembled?
In Nauvoo at the east end of the temple let there. There was a stand fixed there, and he preached there, and that was where ne made the announcement to the congregation.
714: Was that the time the vote was taken by raising the hand?
That was the time when the people sanctioned it, that is the mass of the people sanctioned it.
715: To what local church did those people belong who were there at that time, and sanctioned that ordination?
To what, I don’t understand the question.
716: I asked you to what particular church did the people belong who were there at that time and sanctioned that ordination or selection?
They belonged to the Latter Day Saints Church.
717: At what place?
718: Upon what ground did you state that it was the general belief and impression that Joseph Smith should be the successor of his father?
On what grounds?
719: Yes sir.
I have told you that already, and I don’t see why I am asked these questions over and over again.
720: Well I would like for you to state again on what grounds you base the belief that young Joseph was selected to be the successor of his father?
Well sir on the grounds because it was so directed by a revelation from Heaven. Now that was the ground and we all thought it was a good one, we knew it was a good one.
721: Upon what grounds do you state it was the general belief?
That is the ground, the people belied that this revelation had been given. The Saints knew it had been given, and that was sufficient for them.
722: How did you know it?
Why man there was, there were scores talked to me about it, there was a great many talked to me about it, in fact they were in the office all the time talking about it.
723: How many do you suppose talked to you about it?
I couldn’t tell you.
724: Did you not say there were scores?
725: You say there were scores talked to you about it?
726: Now you said, I believe that the twelve, or a large part of them were present when Joseph was ordained?
I said before that there was two of them present.
727: Which two of the twelve were present?
That was John Taylor and Willard Richards.
728: When did you say the appointment was made with reference to the date of the ordination?
Where was it made?
729: When was it made, that is the question I asked you?
Why it was made right there in Nauvoo in an upper room over Joseph’s store.
730: I said when?
It was in the winter of 1843 some time.
731: What month?
Well I could not say.
732: Well how long before the ordination?
He was ordained at the same time in that room where he was appointed.
733: Then the ordination and appointment were made at the same time?
Certainly, it was.
734: When was the notice sent out to the people to assemble?
Well now I did not have the business of sending out the notices, and I couldn’t tell you the date.
735: Who did have the business?
What is that?
736: Who did have the business of sending out this notice to the people to assemble?
I suppose it was sent into the printing office and printed, and it was made known to the quorums through the Presidents of the quorums, and to the people through the President of the branches and in that way the people would know it.
737: The ordination took place on Wednesday you say?
Yes sir on Wednesday evening.
738: And the people assembled on the next Sunday?
Yes sir, on Sunday afternoon. That is the congregation assembled at that time.
739: That is the congregation assembled the next Sunday afternoon?
Yes sir but not in regard to that.
740: How is that?
I say they were not called together for that purpose. They were there for preaching.
741: They were not called together you say for that purpose, but were there simply to hear the preaching?
Yes sir it was the regular preaching time, and there was no call about it. They gathered to hear the preaching that way without a call.
742: Well at that meeting then the question of the ordination of Joseph was submitted?
At that meeting it was declared by Joseph himself that it had took place, and that his son Joseph was his successor in the office and the people agreed to it.
743: How many fonts were built in the temple at Nauvoo for baptism?
There was one in the temple.
744: Was there any other anywhere there?
There was one in the temple. There was none outside that I know of.
745: Was there one out side the temple?
There was one in the basement of the temple but it was never used, for it was never completed.
746: Of what was the one in the basement built?
What is that?
747: Of what was that font in the basement built?
It was built of stone, – hewed stone.
748: Was there not a temporary font of wood built before that?
Not when I was there, – that was done before I went there. Now I want to ask these legal gentlemen if I am bound to answer these legal question over again. I answered all these questions yesterday and I am not willing to do it again.
749: Well sir we are through with you for the present.