29 – Charles R. Ross

1: What is your full name?
Charles R. Ross.

2: Where do you reside, Mr. Ross?
In Caldwell County, at Bravmer.

3: Is that in Caldwell County, Missouri?
Yes sir.

4: What is your age Mr. Ross?
I will be seventy-nine years of age the sixteenth of August, – I am seventy-eight years old now.

5: How long have you lived in Caldwell County?
Since the first day of February 1839.

6: Immediately previous to that time where did you live?
I lived on the edge of Livingstone, sir.

7: Livingstone County?
Yes sir.

8: Does Livingstone County adjoin Caldwell?
Yes sir, it is the adjoining county on the cast.

9: How long did you live there?
On the edge of Livingstone?

10: Yes sir?
I came there on the fifth day of November of ’38.

11: The fifth day of November 1836?
Yes sir.

12: Where did you live prior to your coming there?
I lived in Tennesee. I lived in Tennesee eighty miles east of Nashville in Warren County.

13: Then you came there from Tennesee?
Yes sir.

14: You came to Livingstone County?
Yes sir.

15: From Tennesee you came to Livingstone County?
Yes sir.

16: Did you know anything about the religious sect of people called Mormons at that time?
Not until I was down at Keyetsville coming up there, – that is, when I was on my way up there. That was the first I knew of them.

17: Where is Keyetsville?
In Chariton County.

18: Where does Chariton lay from Livingston?
it is one or two counties east of Livingstone.

19: What did you learn about that time about the Mormon people?
We camped there at that place in Chariton County, and we were going up to the line of Caldwell and Livingstone, for I had a brother-in-law living there, and we were moving up to where he lived, and it was while we camped there that I saw the Mormons first.

20: You say “we”, whom do you mean by “we”?
Well sir we were all there.

21: Well that is just what I want to know whom you mean by “we”, – when you say “w were all there”, whom do you mean by the “we”?
Well sir, the whole connection of us, my father-in-law, myself and the whole connection of us, my father-in-law, myself and the whole connection of us, and there was five families of us in all, and we wee moving in the old fashioned way with wagons up there to where my brother-in-law lived on the edge of Livingston County.

22: Well, what occurred there?
Well after we camped I went to the man’s house, – that is, the house of the man on whose land we were camped, and there was a gentleman and lady there that were scared about this trouble, and they said that they had been run out from Davies County, and they were in that man’s house there on account of that trouble.

23: They did not live there then, – they were simply stopping there?
Yes sir, they were there, and they said they had been run out of Davies County on account of the trouble, and they were there and they were afraid of the trouble that was rumored to be there at the time.

24: Well I don’t care about your stating what they said to you, because that would not be testimony at all, – just tell what you know about the matter of your own knowledge, – what you know personally and nothing else?
Well sir, I came up to Keytesville and when I got there I heard there was a wounded Mormon there. Parties told me that, and after I got there there was a guard there, and they examined everybody that came up, and if they had a box bed on their waggons, – the same kind of a bed that we have here now, they were not allowed to go through without some kind of an examination, and as we had the old fashioned kind of waggon beds they did not stop us.

25: High behind and in front?
Yes sir, and we had some niggers and some hounds with us, and they said we wee not Mormons, and let us go through.

26: Because you had that kind of a wagon bed?
Yes sir. Thee was lots of people camped there, and they said they were Mormons. Keytesville was a pretty small town then, and when these people came up they halted them, – the guard did, – and went and hunted this man, – well let me see how that was, – yes, when we got there and they had decided we were not Mormons, we camped and then we went and hunted this man up that was wounded, – the wounded Mormon, for we wanted to see him. Now my brother-in-law lived within six miles of this mill where they had the fight and so many of these Mormons were killed.

27: What mill?
Hahn’s mill, the place where that big fight was, or where so many of these people were killed. Well I went and hunted this man up, and I found him lying there on a bed pretty badly wounded, and I inquired of him about that trouble, –

28: Well you need not tell what he said?
Well then I will leave him. I found him pretty badly wounded, as I said, but if I can’t state what he said I might as well leave him where I found him. Well then we came on up to the line of Caldwell County and stayed there a couple of nights, and then fell back again to Utica and stayed there that winter, or the biggest portion of the winter, and then along about January of 1833 I rented a portion of this mill.

29: What mill was that?
This old Mormon mill. Hahn’s mill.

30: Was that mill known as the Mormon’s mill?
Yes sir

31: The property that belonged to Mormons?
Yes sir. It was a mill that was built by the Mormons and they had run it for some time. Hahn built it himself so I was told, but I never saw him and of course I don’t know anything about that only what I was told.

32: Was Hahn so far as you knew a Mormon?
Yes sir, that was what I understood but I don’t know anything about that or about him individually, but he was a good workman and put up a mighty good mill there.

33: In what way were those people spoken of?
What people?

34: These people, were they spoken of as Mormons or as Latter Day Saints?
They were spoken of as Mormons. My understanding was that they had to get away from that country by the 10th of they next June, – all of them that would not submit to the government, or take the oath of allegiance, as it was termed. I see Mr. Kelley don’t understand that.

35: Well the 10th of June of what year?
1869

36: You don’t mean 1869, – you mean ’39 don’t you?
Yes sir, ’39, I meant to say. I ask your pardon about that for I meant to say ’39.

37: Do you know by what orders or by whose authority the order for their leaving was issued, or by whom, – Do you know anything about that?
By the orders of the government I understood.

38: That is what they said?
Yes sir, that is what they said.

39: You said “they said”, – just explain who you mean by “they”?
Well I mean that both sides told me that.

40: Both sides told you that?
Yes sir.

41: Well what do you mean by both sides?
Gentiles and Mormons both told me that. The Gentiles were on one side of the question and the Mormons were on the other side, and they both told me the same thing, you know.

42: Who were the Gentiles?
The Missourians.

43: The citizens of Missouri?
Yes sir.

44: And the Mormon element as well as the native, or ra- ther the citizens of the country who were not Mormons told you that was the reason of the expulsion of the Mormons?
Yes sir.

45: That they were forced to leave by an order of the governor?
Yes sir, by order of the government.

46: How many of these people that you call Mormons did you meet there at that time?
Well I expect some forty or fifty or more.

47: Did you converse with that many of the Mormons on the question of the difficulty they were in?
Yes sir, I think so, – perhaps more that that.

48: How many of the other side did you converse with on the same question?
Well about the same number.

49: Well how many of these people did you converse with?
Well I can’t say, for I don’t know. But there as a good many, but the exact number I cannot say. I was in the mill there at the time, and they used to come there with their grists you know, and we would talk over one thing and another and it was natural that we should talk about that, but when it comes down to telling you the number of people I have talked with about that I can’t do it. I run the mill there at the time, and they had to come to the mill to me.

50: How did it happen that they conversed with you?
Well as I told you before the Mormons had to come there to get their grindings dohe and we would talk

30: Was that mill known as the Mormon’s mill?
Yes sir.

31: The property that belonged to Mormons?
Yes sir. It was a mill that was built by the Mormons and they had run it for some time. Hahn built it himself so I was told, but I never saw him and of course I don’t know anything about that only what I was told.

32: Was Hahn so far as you knew a Mormon?
Yes sir, that was what I understood but I don’t know anything about that or about him individually, but he was a good workman and put up a mighty good mill there.

33: In what way were those people spoken of?
What people?

34: These people were they spoken of as Mormons or as Latter Day Saints?
They were spoken of as Mormons. My understanding was that they had to get away from that country by the 10th of the next June, – all of them that would not submit to the government, or take the oath of allegiance, as it was termed. I see Mr. Kelley don’t understand that.

35: Well the 10th of June of what year?
1869.

36: You don’t mean 1869, – you mean ’39 don’t you?
Yes sir, ’39, I meant to say. I ask your pardon about that for I meant to say ’39.

37: Do you know by what orders or by whose authority the order for their leaving was issued, or by whom, – Do you know anything about that?
By the orders of the government I understood.

38: That is what they said?
Yes sir, that is what they said.

39: You said “they said”, – just explain who you mean by “they”?
Well I mean that both sides told me that.

40: Both sides told you that?
Yes sir.

41: Well what do you mean by both sides?
Gentiles and Mormons both told me that. The Gentiles were on one side of the question and the Mormons were on the other side, and they both told me the same thing, you know.

42: Who were the Gentiles?
The Missourians.

43: The citizens of Missouri?
Yes sir.

44: And the Mormon element as well as the native, or rather the citizens of the country who were not Mormons told you that was the reason of the expulsion of the Mormons?
Yes sir.

45: That they were forced to leave by an order of the govenor?
Yes sir, by order of the government.

46: How many of these people that you call Mormons did you meet there at that time?
Well I expect some forty or fifty or more.

47: Did you converse with that many of the Mormons on the question of the difficulty they were in?
Yes sir, I think so, – perhaps more that that.

48: How many of the other side did you converse with on the same question?
Well about the same number.

49: Well how many of these people did you converse with?
Well I can’t say for I don’t know. But there was a good many, but the exact number I cannot say. I was in the mill there at the time, and they used to come there with their grists you know, and we would talk over one thing and another and it was natural that we should talk about that, but when it comes down to telling you the number of people I have talked with about that I don’t do it. I run the mill there at the time, and they had to come to the mill to me.

50: How did it happen that they conversed with you?
Well as I told you before the Mormons had to come there to get their grinding done and we would talk matters over and they would tell me when they would be there getting their grinding done, for they had to come there to get their grinding done to go away, you know.

51: You mean Hahn’s mill?
Yes sir.

52: You were interested in that mill then?
Yes sir, and it was the only mill for many miles around and some of them came as much as sixty miles to the mill you know, to get their grinding done.

53: Now you said the other party?
I meant the Gentiles for all that were opposed or against the Mormons were called Gentiles.

54: That is whom you mean when you say “the other party”?
Yes sir.

55: Now you said they came sixty miles with their grain to get it ground?
Yes sir, some of them did.

56: What time was it now when you became the lessee of Hahn’s mill?
The how?

57: You leased it as I understand you?
I rented it. I rented the half of it for one year at first.

58: How could you use the half of it? You must have been in with some one?
Yes sir, I had another man in with me.

59: Then you were in the mill with some one else?
Yes sir, with a nephew of mine.

60: Then you and your nephew leased it for a year?
Yes sir, and afterwards my brother-in-law that owned half the mill sold it to the other man, and then I leased it for another year, and the old gentleman that owned it I bought half an acre of land from him, and we concluded to lay off a town there, and we did lay it out and I lived there seven years.

61: Now from the time you first went there and met these Mormons, how long was it after that before the last of them was gone, if they did all go?
Well the last of them went, – well I reckon they went in that winter and the next spring, for I never saw any more of them only the ones that took the oath of allegiance and stayed there. There was several families that did that, and were allowed to stay there.

62: Well now you have not fixed the time definitely, – I asked you how long it was after you first went there before they were all gone, excepting those men you have mentioned who took the oath of allegiance, as you term it?
Well sir, I expect they were all gone in six months at any rate.

63: In six months they were all gone you-say?
Yes sir, I expect they were.

64: Now about how many people do you expect left under these circumstances?
Well sir, I could not tell you how many there was, but there was a good many of them.

65: Do you remember anything about General Clarke?
General Clarke?

66: Yes sir?
No I don’t think I do.

67: Well of those who remained and took the oath of allegiance how many was there?
Well sir, I reckon there must have been some fifteen or sixteen families maybe twenty.

68: Some sixteen to twenty families in the county?
Yes sir, about that number I think.

69: Well did they remain there in the county?
Yes sir the most of them did. Some moved off around in other parts of the country though.

70: When?
Afterwards they did.

71: Well now what was that oath of allegiance that they had to take, if you know?
To support the government of the United States.

72: Was that all?
That was what I understood.

73: You understood that was all?
Yes sir.

74: Well how do you know that was what it was?
Well I just knew from hearsay.

75: You just knew it from hearsay?
Yes sir.

76: And there might have been very much more besides that that you don’t know anything about?
Yes sir.

77: Now did they preach or practice or reach their religion?
Who?

78: Those who remained, did they preach, practice or teach their religion?
No sir, not to my knowledge. They did not to my knowledge, and I can’t say anything about that, for I never was at one of their meetings in my life. Never that I know of.

79: Did they have any meetings in that country after you went there?
Yes sir, they had some before they left but I never was at one of them.

80: You mean those that did not take the oath of allegiance had meetings?
Yes sir. Well I will say yes I suppose so, but I cannot say positively because I did not pay much attention to that.

81: Well now if they were separated, those who did not take the oath of allegiance from the ones that did take the oath of allegiance, did any of those who took the oath of allegiance and remained hold meetings and pursue the same course that they did before in reference to that?
Not that I know of. I never heard them preaching that doctrine there.

82: You say you never heard them preaching that doctrine there, who do you mean by the “them”?
The ones that took the oath of allegiance. I never heard of them preaching that doctrine there. That is, the ones who took the oath of allegiance.

83: Now as a matter of fact you do not know positively of your own knowledge whether there ever was any such thing as an oath of allegiance?
Well I have an idea that it was.

84: You simply have an idea?
Yes sir.

85: And that idea does not amount to positive knowledge?
No sir.

86: And that idea is gathered from what you heard people talk about it as I understood you to state?
Yes sir, that is what I heard at that time.

87: And so far as your personal knowledge goes you do not know anything about it?
No sir, for I am not an educated man. I never had an education, and I can’t tell you what the beginning of it was.

88: What is your business now?
Well sir. I can’t say what my business is hardly. If I had to state what it was I would say my business is working in a garden and we have a bakery and a millinery business there too.

89: You are not identified in any way with the reorganized church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, are you?
No sir, not at all.

90: What religious denomination, if any, do you belong to?
 
Well, I used to belong to the old Methodists at one time, but I don’t belong particularly to any church at the present time. I have kind of cropped out of the church you might say, and don’t belong to nay of them now.

91: You do not belong to any church at the preaent time?
No sir, I might say that I do not. We have several churches there in our county, and I have been around to hear them all but one, but I have not been to hear that one yet, so you see while I belong to no church in particular I go to the churches now and then.

92: Your name you say is Charles R. Ross?
Yes sir, C.R. Ross is the way I sign it, and that is about all I can do in the way of writing it too.

93: Have you ever seen a book called “A history of Caldwell and Livingston Counties” published in 1186?
Yes sir, and I suppose there is a good deal of my chat in that book too. The gentleman that was writing it or looking it stayed a night or two with me, – two or three nights I guess perhaps when I was running a hotel at Black Oak in that county.

94: Do you remember the month of months in which the great body of the people left that county, – I mean the Mormon people?
I think the biggest body went in May.

95: In May 1839?
Yes sir, in May 1839.

96: Was there or was there not, considerable feeling against the Latter Day Saints or Mormons as they were commonly called, in that particular locality?
Hard feeling did you say?

97: Well I did not say exactly that but it amounts to the same thing?
Well of course there was for a certainty. There is no doubt about that, but both parties treated me all right. I can say that much for all of them.

98: Whether they were Mormons or whether they were Gentiles, they treated you all right?
Yes sir, it did not make any difference in the way they treated me.

99: Well now how long, if you know, did this feeling against these people continue in these counties?
Well I could not tell you that for some have a prejudice against them today.

100: Some today have a prejudice, you say, against them?
Yes sir.

101: That is, against the people called the Mormons?
Yes sir. There is no doubt of that sir.

102: No doubt of what?
That some people have a prejudice against the Motmons today.

103: Do you mean by that that the prejudice has continued from that time down to the present day?
Yes sir, certainly I do.

104: Or that it is simply confined to the present time?
No sir, in certain families there has been a prejudice against them right from that time down to the present day.

105: What I wanted to ask him was, – what I intended to ask you when I started out was whether you were the same Ross that is mentioned in that book?
Yes sir, I think I am, – I have no doubt of it.

106: You have lived in Caldwell County Mr. Ross every since the time you have mentioned?
Ye sir.

107: When was the time you said you first came to Caldwell County?
In ’39 I first came there to live, but before that I had lived down there close to the line in Livingston County from some months.

108: When did you first come to Caldwell County to live?
February 1st 1839.

109: And you have never lived anywhere else?
Not since I came there.

110: You have never lived anywhere else since you came there?
No sir, I have lived there ever since I came to the county, – that is, I have never moved out of the county to live since I came there. I have lived in the county all the time, and I have moved but a few times around in the county.

111: Now you spoke a little while ago about the prejudice that existed in the county there against the Mormons?
Yes sir, I spoke of the circumstances that a few of the old citizens there that were there when they were there, and were in these fights and at that surrender and all those things have a prejudice against them to this day.

112: That is the way that is, – there is a lingering prejudice that has descended since that time?
Yes sir.

113: And you say that is a prejudice against the Mormons?
Yes sir.

114: There are some citizens there that don’t like them?
Yes sir.

115: Well is that not true about the Methodists, – is there not some people that have a prejudice against the Methodists?
Well the churches are split up you know, and there is some prejudice in that way against them, but that is a different thing entirely. It is another kind of a prejudice entirely.

116: Well is there not the same prejudice against the Roman Catholics?
Yes sir, and there most always is wherever you go with some people.

117: Is there not just as much prejudice against the Roman Catholics as there is against the Mormons?
Well I couldn’t say, for there is very few Roman Catholics in our county. We haven’t a Roman Catholic church in our county, or anything of the kind, and so I can’t say as to that. I don’t know anything at all about that in that way for that reason.

118: You say there is no Catholic churches in your county?
No sir, not in our county.

119: Are there any Mormon churches there now?
In our county?

120: Yes sir?
None that I know anything of in our county.

121: Do you say there is not any?
yes sir. There may be some of the Latter Day Saints there for all that I know, but if there is they are not in my end of the county.

122: There may be some of the people called Latter Day Saints in Caldwell County for all that you know?
Yes sir, there may be, but I don’t think there is many of them if there is any at all. I am pretty sure they haven’t a church there in our county, but there is a church in a place called Tinney’s Grove, in Ray County. That denomination has a church there I understand, but I have never been to it though.

123: Do I understand you correctly when I understand you to say that you knew them as Mormons when you first met them, or knew them there in the county at first?
Yes sir.

124: And not as Latter Day Saints?
Yes sir, – there was

107: When was the time you said you first came to Caldwell County?
In ’39 I first came there to live, but before that I had lived down there close to the line in Livingston County for some months.

108: When did you fist come to Caldwell County to live?
February 1st 1839.

109: And you have never lived anywhere else?
Not since I came there.

110: You have never lived anywhere else since you came there?
No sir, I have lived there ever since I came to the county, – that is, I have never moved out of the county to live since I came there. I have lived in the county all the time, and I have moved but a few times around in the county.

111: Now you spoke a little while ago about the prejudice that existed in the county there against the Mormons?
Yes sir, I spoke of the circumstances that a few of the old citizens there that were there when they were there, and were in these fights and at that surrender and all those things have a prejudice against them to this day.

112: That is the way that is, – there is a lingering prejudice that has descended since that time?
Yes sir.

113: And you say that is a prejudice against the Mormons.
Yes sir.

114: There are some citizens there that don’t like them?
Yes sir.

115: Well is that not true about the Methodists, – is there not some people that have a prejudice against the Methodists?
Well the churches are split up you know, and there is some prejudice in that way against them, but that is a different thing entirely. It is another kind of a prejudice entirely.

116: Well is there not the same prejudice against the Roman Catholics?
Yes sir, and there most always is wherever you go with some people.

117: Is there not just as much prejudice against the Roman Catholics as there is against the Mormons?
Well I couldn’t say, for there is very few Roman Catholics in our county. We haven’t a Roman Catholic church in our county, or anything of the kind, and so I can’t say as to that. I don’t know anything at all about that in that way for that reason.

118: You say there is no Catholic churches in your county?
No sir, not in our county.

119: Are there any Mormon churches there now?
In our county?

120: Yes sir?
None that I know anything of in our county.

121: Do you say there is not any?
Yes sir. There may be some of the Latter Day Saints there for all that I know, but if there is they are not in my end of the county.

122: There may be some of the people called Latter Day Saints in Caldwell County for all that you know?
Yes sir, there may be, but I don’t think there is many of them if there is any at all. I am pretty sure they haven’t a church there in our county, but there is a church in a place called Tinney’s Grove, in Ray County. That denomination has a church there I understand, but I have never been to it though.

123: Do I understand you correctly when I understand you to say that you knew them as Mormons when you first met them, or knew them there in the county at first?
Yes sir.

124: And not as Latter Day Saints?
Yes sir, – there was nothing said about Latter Day Saints. They were called Mormons.

125: Now you think in that neighborhood, if not in that county, but in a neighboring county, there is a church of Latter Day Saints?
Yes sir, that is what they tell me. I did not witness it, – that is, I do not know the church is there from my own knowledge, – that is what they tell me, and all I know about it is from hearsay.

126: Well how far is it from where you live to the place that you understand this church of Latter Day Saints is?
It is about nine miles from where I live to the place where they say it is.

127: And you have never seen that church?
No sir.

128: Now do you know the names of any of these Mormon people that you saw in those days?
Oh yes.

129: Do you remember any of their names?
Yes sir. T There was the Rathbuns.

130: Sir?
There was the Rathbuns, and in telling over the names of the ones that stayed there, there was the Waters’ and Rathbuns, and they continued in our county. There was the Walters family and also the Dodge family, and let me see who else there was there. Well there was several others that I have forgotten the names of, for it has been a long time since those day and I can’t remember the names very well.

131: Did you know the Whitmers?
Yes sir. I knew the two old men Whitmers. One lived there at Richmond, and the other one died at Far West. I knew them well and I knew the youngest son of the old man that lived there at Far West.

132: Were they Mormons?
Well they were, but they took the oath of allegiance and stayed there.

133: Now the names of the people who were Mormons that you have given is the names of the ones that stayed after the expulsion, as it is termed?
Yes sir.

134: Did you know the names of any that left?
Well I don’t know that I am able to call any of them to mind. I used to be able to call their names but I believe it has been so long ago that I have forgotten them. I can’t now recollect names like I used to do for I am getting old, and it has been a long time ago since these things happened. It has been fifty years and upward since that time. These head leaders of the church when I came there, Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith and Lyman Wight, and Sydney Rigdon were all in Richmond yet, when I came to Caldwell County.

135: When was that?
In ’39, – or ’38 I mean.

136: When did you, – did you come by Richmond when coming there?
No sir.

137: How do you know they were there?
Well I was told they were there.

138: Now what time was it when you arrived in Caldwell County?
In ’38.

139: What time in the year?
The first day of February ’39.

140: The first day of February ’39?
Yes sir, bit I was down there near the life of Caldwell County in the fall of ’38, and of course I hear a great deal of this while I was there.

141: Now at that time who was in Richmond, – where were they in Richmond?
In jail.

142: Now at that time who was in the Richmond jail?
Lyman Wight and Sydney Rigdon and Joe Smith and Hyrum Smith were said to be in the Richmond jail at that time for treason.

143: Do you call to mind the names of the other people who were said to be in the jail at Richmond at that time?
Sir?

144: Do you call to mind any other names of Mormons who were said to be in jail there?
No sir, none but them.

145: That is all you call to mind?
Yes sir, and what makes me recollect so well about that is because they took a change of venue from this state to Illinois, and the sheriff of Davies County was to take them there. Let me see what his name was, – I believe his name was Bowman, but I am not certain about it, but I think that was the name.

146: Just state what you know, and not what you heard?
Well this is only hearsay.

147: You went up to Hahn’s mill?
Yes sir.

148: Well at what time did you go up there?
I took possession there with my nephew on the first day of February 1839.

149: You say there was a wounded man there?
Yes sir.

150: AT that time?
Yes sir, I believe there was two there wounded at that time.

151: Was this man badly wounded?
Yes sir.

152: Both of them?
Yes sir, both of them, – they were pretty badly wounded One of the men that was wounded went by the name of Meyers, and the other, – well I can’t think of his name now. Let me see. There was two Meyers’ wounded in that battle or fight I think.

153: You remember that?
Yes sir, I think that was their names, – one of them was Meyers, and I think there was two of them by the same name.

154: Did you know Rathbun there?
Yes sir, I knew the old gentleman, – the father of this one that has been here. Was the old gentleman named Rodert Rathbun – ?

155: Well it don’t matter, – did you know the one that was here?
I knew him when he was a boy.

156: What time did you know him?
Well he remained there with his mother in our neighborhood for some time, – I can’t say how long.

157: Where did you first see him?
Well I believe I saw him in the spring there, – I believe he was at my house. HIs mother was I know, and I believe he was also.

158: The spring of what year?
Of ’39.

159: Was he lame?
Yes sir, when you speak of it I recollect now of his being a little lame I think.

160: You remember then about his being there?
Yes sir. I remember something about his being a little lame. I remember something about that I think. I know that his oldest sister used to work for me along about that time while the old man was gone, for he was gone for a couple of years.

161: You remember of his, – that is, of the old gentleman going away?
Yes sir, he went off about the same time that the Mormons did, and when he came back the old lady and the oldest daughter were at my house, for they only lived when they were at home within a mile or so of me.

162: Were you ever at Far West?
Yes sir.

163: When was the first time you was there?
I was there when the first court was held there. I think that was in May after the Mormons left, and I was one of the grand jury, and that is how I came to be there at that time.

164: You were there you say, at the first court that was held?
 
Yes sir.

165: And that was after the Mormons had gone away?
Yes sir. It was after they left.

166: And that was in May, you say?
Yes sir.

167: What court do you mean?
The Circuit Court, sir.

168: It was the Circuit Court?
Yes sir, and I was there at the first Circuit Court that was held in the county after the Mormons gave up the possession, you know, but there was lots of Mormons there at that time, but they had promised to leave right away, and had given up possession of the county.

169: That court was held at Far West?
Yes sir.

170: Was there a court house at Far West at that time?
No sir, there was no court house there then.

171: Where was the court held in Far West?
It was held in a frame building that was there. It was held there for three years, and I was there at every court that was held there during the three years.

172: Were you there at any other court besides the Circuit Court?
I can’t say. I don’t believe I was there at the county courts but may be I was at one. Yes I think I was at the County Court once and filed some papers in it if I am not very much mistaken.

173: Did you have any business with the County Court?
Yes sir.

174: I mean in ’38 or ’39 to Kingston.
 

175: did you ever own any real estate in Caldwell County.
Yes sir.

176: When and from whom did you purchase it?
I purchased one forty acre lot, but I did not purchase it from a Mormon direct, it was second-handed so to speak. I purchased it from a man who bought it from a Mormon, and I purchased forty acres from James Hahn adjoining this mill, – I mean to say I did not purchase it from him, but from another man that he sold it to. I owned about nine hundred acres in that county at one time.

177: Did you know of any one having been shot during these troubles in the blacksmith shop at that place?
Yes sir, and the man that did the deed stood right on the ground the next summer and said “I stood right here Charley and shot that boy under the bellows right here, for the boy ran up under the bellows for protection” and that is where he shot him.

178: That is what he told you?
Yes sir.

179: And showed you where it was done?
Yes sir.

180: When was this that he showed you that?
That was in ’39, – along some time in the summer of ’39.

181: Was he boasting of it?
Yes sir, and I took him by the shoulder and shook him and said “Bill Runnels, never tell that, again in the world.” I said “be ashamed of it” and he said “knits make lice,” and that, was all the reply he made to what I said to him.

182: That was done in the black-smith shop?
Yes sir.

183: Who was the boy that was shot?
Well I presume I would remember the name of the boy if I heard it, but I can’t remember it, not unless my memory was refreshed.

184: Would you know the name of the boy if you hear it?
I might.

185: Was he the son of Warren Smith?
Warren Smith?

186: Yes sir?
I could not say.

187: Who was it told you that?
It was Bill Runnells told me that, and he lived in the north east corner of Caldwell County. There was another man that I was well acquainted with that was in the fight. He was a Tennesean, and he shot a man by the name of Lewis, so he said. He shot that man across the creek on top of the hill, and this Tennesean was there the next summer after the fight and walked out of top of the hill and showed me where he shot the man, – where he stood when he fired the shot, and where the man was that was shot. He shot this man Lewis from the fence on the other side of the creek, and and two years afterwards his remains were taken out of the field and buried, for he was not put in the well with the rest of the, for he was buried about a quarter of a mile from where he was killed. My brother-in-law bought the land and there was a little patch of brush where he was buried, and my brother-in-law wanted to remove his remains, and I think it was the second or third court they had there in the county my brother-in-law went to the court to get an order to do so, and move them to the grave yard, and I think that governor King was the Judge of the Court, and he and my brother-in-law were educated together in Tennesee, and he just said to him, – he said “Billy”, for his name was Billy Lane, – he said “there is no need of that order, but you just get your neighbors to take them up and put them away.” I was not there when they were taken up, but I was there after they were taken up and were in a box in the house, and I examined them myself and saw the size of the ball he was shot with, and the size was the same as the size of the ball that the man that shot him told me he shot him with, and the hole was right through both blade of the shoulder. Now I saw that with my own eyes, and this man told me he shot him. There is no hearsay about that, for that is something I saw myself.

188: Were any of these men ever indicted or brought to justice for shooting these men?
No sir.

189: Where are they now?
They are dead and gone, – both of them. They are not in the land of the living now, but they were never brought to justice for what they did, unless they have been since they died. One of them lived near Utica there, and the other lived in the north east corner of our county.

190: What do you know, if anything, about the bodies of any of the Mormon people being thrown into a well that was there?
Well it was sais that they were put in there, –

191: Well I do not care about your stating what was said about it, for that would not be testimony. The Court would say that you could not give that kind of testimony. What I want to know is what you know personally about it.
All right. Well I will tell you what I know personally about it, and perhaps I know a good deal bout it, – it settled down, – the graves did-

192: Well now you know that is the beginning of it. We want to know all you know about it, and do not understand what you mean by that?
Well sir, of this well in which they were put, and of which where can be no manner of doubt. There can be no doubt but that they were put in there, for the next spring when it thawed out, for it was all frozen up when I went there, and when it thawed out in the spring it stunk like an old dead horse. It was a twelve foot well and eighteen were put in there of their own folks, and I told a man that his father was in there.

193: Well I asked him what he knew personally?
Well several men have told me.

194: Well it don’t matter what “several men have told” you. That is not evidence, what they told you is not evidence and it is not proper to state what they told you. You should only state what you know of your own knowledge, and nothing else. If there was a judge sitting up there heading this testimony he would tell you that it is improper to give such testimony, and would not permit you to do so.
Well they were there in that well, there is no doubt of it, for I smelt them like an old dead horse in the spring when it thawed out and the warm weather came on. There is no doubt in the world but they were there, and afterwards I helped fill the well that was their grave up.

195: You helped fill the well up?
Yes sir, the well, but I call it their grave too.

196: What was your object in filling it up?
Well it smelt so bad and annoyed me so much, for it was within ten steps of my door and it stunk like a dead horse, and was so bad that I had to do it.

197: Now you said you understood there was eighteen people in that well?
Yes sir.

198: Now I believe you said there was a good many killed there at Hahn’s mill?
You sir.

199: And do you mean to say that all the people that were killed there at Hahn’s mill were put in that well?
No sir, not all of them. There was this man Lewis that I told you of that was shot by this man through the shoulder blades, he was killed and he was not put in this well at all.

200: Were all the rest of them put in there?
Yes sir that is what they said. I was well acquainted with Mr. McBride’s family. He was the gentleman that was cut with the corn knife. He was cut all to pieces in his own door.

201: How is that?
A man from Davies County by the name of Rogers, he belonged to that company that came there to fight the Mormons, and he cut Mr. McBride who was an old gentleman whom I never saw. He attacked him at his house and he ran down to the creek, and this man Rogers overtook him in the creek with a piece of a scythe or corn knife, you have seen them and know what I mean, and he cut him all to pieces with it, and a cut his head off. McBride’s family were there when I came there and lived just over east of us.

202: Do you know anything further about the history of that man that you speak of having been cut up?
McBride?

203: Yes sir?
I got personally acquainted with his family afterwards and bought all their things when they started to go away, and was in the house, me and Robert White when they went to move away, and bought the remnants they had, for they hadn’t much left to sell when they went away.

204: Well what was done with his remains, – what was done with the remains of this man McBride?
HIs remains were put in that well, so the family told me. I know that much about it.

205: Do you know anything about his family history?
No sir.

206: Do you know that he had been a soldier?
Who, – Mr McBride?

207: Yes sir?
With the Mormons?

208: No sir, in the war, or anywhere else?
No sir, I could not say anything about that, for they never told me anything about that.

209: Well that is all.
 

210: Were you subpoenaed?
No sir.
They told me that if I did not come they would subpoenae me if I did not come, and I told them I would come with a subpoenae if I had to come anyway.