1: What did you say your name was?
Jacob Gregg
2: Where do you reside at the present time, Mr. Gregg?
At Grain Valley.
3: What county and state is that in?
In Jackson County in the state of Missouri.
4: How long have you resided there?
In the county of Jackson I have resided Sixty seven years.
5: What is your age at the present time, Mr. Gregg?
In the sate of Missouri I have resided nearly eighty years. What was the question?
6: I asked you what your age was at the present time?
My age is ninety or a little past, I was ninety years old and the ninth day of last month.
7: You may state what, if any, official position you have held in the county of Jackson since you have resided in it, Mr. Gregg?
Well I have held a good many offices first and last in this county. I believe the first office I held was before this county was organized as a county, – that is, before this county was organized as it is now. In this county first I was one of its executive officers commonly called a
constable. I believe that was the first office I held in this county.
8: What time was that?
Did you ask me when that was?
9: Yes sir, – in what year was that?
That was a long time ago, – that was in the year ’26.
10: That was in the year 1826?
Yes sir.
11: What office if any, did you hold in this county in the year 1831?
I held an office then. I held the office of Sheriff.
12: You were the sheriff of this county in 1833?
Yes sir, I was elected in ’32.
13: Well, how long did you hold the office of sheriff?
The term was two years, but I was elected for the second term and held it four years altogether.
14: You were sheriff of this county, then, for four years?
Yes sir.
15: You may state now, Mr. Gregg, what happened during your term of sheriff, – that is, to your knowledge, what happened with reference to a portion of the citizens of Jackson County, being driven from the county?
Well, I would state there, that being Sheriff of the county at that time, I was not in that in any way. Whatever was done at that time was kept from me, – they did not let me knw about it, because I was the Sheriff of the County. Of what is termed, you know, driving the Mormons away from Jackson County, – being sheriff I was not with any of it, but I can tell you what I heard, if you want met to do so, and that is all.
16: How did it happen that you were not a witness, and did not see any of it?
Well, because I was an executive officer, and they did not allow me to get into their plans, – they kept it secret from me because I was an executive peace officer of the county I suppose. They did not wanr me about them at all when they were doing it.
17: Well, what do you know about it?
Well, the first movement that was made as when they tore down the printing office. At that time I lived out some two miles in the country, and I was in the habit of coming in every morning to attend to the business of my office, and when I came in one morning I saw a crowd of men standing about the corner of the court house, the court house then was a very small house, – and I saw this crowd there, and saw that one of them had a rope in this hand and when I got up about half ways to them, they sent two men to meet me, and these men said they had seme business with me back at the tavern that was on the corner where the Merchant’s Hotel is down there, and so they took me back into a room there.
18: Who took you there?
These two men that they sent to me did. They took me over there to the tavern and took me to a room there, and one of them then went out and locked the door after him and left me there with the other one, and so I knew nothing of what was going on on the outside until it was all over. They had torn down the printing office and dispersed before I got out to see what had been done.
19: Did you make any order or effort with reference to trying to arrest the parties at that time?
Well I did not know who the parties were at that time that did it. I did not know of my own knowledge, but I thought there was one I knew under the name of King.
20: A man by the name of King?
Yes sir.
21: Who was engaged in this work of destruction, generally? Was it the citizens generally?
Oh no, it wasn’t. It was the crowd that was congregated there that first started it. It was not the citizens generally, but the feeling was wrought up a great deal by some reported threats, you know, that it was said was made by the Mormons as they were called, but whether they were true or not I can’t tell.
22: Well after that excitement, – after you were let out of that house or room where they locked you in, then what did you do?
Everything was all quiet then. It was all civil then, – there was no fuss or riotous conduct at all after I was let out of the room. Everything was quieted down and was all civil enough after I got out.
23: What, if anything, had been done by the mob, or by the citizens during the time you were in that room and before?
Well I can’t say just what had been done, but I learned afterwards that they had demolished the printing office, for they seemed to think that was the seat of the trouble, and they had gone to work and demolished it. That printing office seemed to be the seat of the trouble between the factions and they had demolished it.
24: Had they done anything else?
I never learned that they done anything else then?
25: Did they tear down any houses?
I think they demolished the printing office.
26: Well did they demolish or tear down or damage any other buildings?
Well I can’t say how as to that. I can’t recollect now as to that. I can’t say as to that, for this is a matter that occurred so long ago and is something I have not thought of for a good many years.
27: Where were the people, if you know, at that time, called “Mormons”?
Where were they?
28: Yes sir. Where were they?
The Mormons?
29: Yes sir?
There was some of them living on some town lots here in Independence. There were some of them living at that time on some town lots here in the town of Independence, but the town at that time was a small place compared to what it is now and the town site covered only one hundred and sixty acres, I think, – the town then was not near so large in territory as it is now.
30: Well were these people called Mormons at their homes afterwards or were they driven away from their homes?
No sir, they were not driven away then.
31: They were not driven away at that time?
No sir, but they were afterwards.
32: Well when were they driven away, – go on and state that?
In the winter or spring of ’36 it was.
33: In the winter or spring of what year?
’36. Now that is my recollection.
34: Well were these people driven across the river at that time, to your knowledge?
Well they were not driven, – my understanding is that they were not directly driven away, but they agreed to go across the river and the citizens here permitted them to go, – they permitted them to take that course, – that is the way I understood it.
35: Then they did not remain here?
No sir, they did not remain.
36: How many of them went across the river, if you know?
No sir. I do not know anything about that. I can’t
say how many of them there was went across the river, for that is something I don’t know anything about at all.
37: Could you tell, Mr. Gregg, whether or not any of them remained here?
Not at that time.
38: What do you mean by that answer?
I mean that my understanding was that none of them remained here.
39: Were they permitted to remain?
Well I don’t think they were.
40: You had resided here for several years before that time, that is, for several years before 1833 I believe you stated?
Yes sir.
41: And you knew most of the people who lived here at that time in this country?
I knew a great many of them.
42: Was there a man living here at that time by the name of Boggs who was afterwards Governor of this state governor of Missouri?
Yes sir, and I was acquainted with Boggs for several years before that time. I was acquainted with him while a citizen of Howard County.
43: I will also ask you whether or not you knew a man by the name of Weston, Samuel Weston, at that time?
Yes sir. I knew them both well.
44: Do you know what part this man Samuel Weston took in the proceedings of that mob?
No sir. I could not.
45: Could you state whether or not he acted as the chairman of the indignation meeting?
No sir.
46: Were you present at that meeting?
No sir. I was not present. I was never informed, according to my recollection, as to who was in that meeting. The fact is I have forgotten that there was any meeting of that kind now. I don’t recollect now of there being any meeting of that kind. If there was nay meeting of that kind I recollect that I was not present.
47: I will ask you now what the state of the feeling of the people was at that time against the Mormons?
Why it was rather indignant. There was a feeling of a kind of intense indignation against them. There can’t be any kind of question as to that, the people were wrought up to a state of intense indignation against them.
48: I will ask you what the result would have been to your kind if you had given an order as sheriff to the people or any of them, to have had them assist you in defending the Mormons. What would have been the result of such an order if you had issued such an order?
49: Go on and state what the feeling was in that regard.
Well the feeling of the people was, I am only to answer the question with reference to what the result would have been if I had called on the people to assist me in enforcing the law? Is that it?
50: Yes sir.
Well I don’t know whether there was. I think a portion of the citizens would have obeyed but some others wouldn’t. There is no doubt about that. Now that is my opinion, while some of the citizens would, in my opinion, have obeyed the order, there was others that would not have done so.
51: You lived right along in this community for years afterwards didn’t you?
Yes sir.
52: You have been living in this community from that time to this?
Yes sir, I have been living here ever since that time. I have lived in this county ever since 1826, well that was the time I was first elected to an office here.
53: And you have known the feeling of the people since that time?
Yes sir.
54: How long, Mr. Gregg, was it after this time you speak of when the printing press was destroyed and the Mormons were expelled from this county, how long was it after that time before the state of feeling had become such in this county, that it would have been safe for the Mormons, as they are called, to have returned here to take up their residence here as citizens of this county without being molested? If you can state that Mr. Gregg, please do so?
Well there are some circumstances that I would state so as to give you an idea. There was the circumstance of Boggs being shot and that was laid upon the Mormons, and that produced much feeling.
55: How long was that after the Mormons had been driven away that this occurred?
Well I can’t say positively, but I think it was some three or four years. I can’t say positively but I think it was about 3 or 4 years.
56: It was after he was out of the office of governor was it not that he was shot?
Yes sir.
57: Well now go on and state what the feeling of the citizens was here, of the citizens that remained was, as against the Mormons, and whether they would have been permitted to have come back without violence?
No sir.
58: What do you mean by that answer?
I mean that I don’t think they would have been permitted to come back at that time without meeting with violent treatment.
59: Well how long did that state of feeling continue, if you know?
Well, it gradually wore off, it gradually wore off.
60: Well did it continue along for several years?
Undoubtedly it did.
61: Well about how long, in years, did it continue, if you can state?
Well I can’t state anything like a definite or correct time. That is something that it is hard to say, for there was some portion of the citizens that did not have any particular ill will or hard feelings towards the Mormons at all, but probably they were in a minority, while others had an intense feeling of hostility against them, and would have offered them violence if they had attempted to come back at that time. It was then a good deal as it is now, only at that time men’s passions and prejudices were more worked up than at present, for there are citizens here now I think who don’t like the Mormons, don’t like to see them coming into the country, and would rather they were not here at this time.
62: I will ask you to state Mr. Gregg, whether those parties that were driven across the river at that time whether they were permitted to come back to their homes here at all or not after that?
They did not do it. I don’t know whether it was because they were not permitted to come or how that was, but I know they did not come. I don’t think however that they were permitted to come back. Now that is my opinion about it. I do not think they were permitted to come back, or would have been permitted to come back at any rate they would not have been permitted to do so for a short time afterwards.
63: Do you know who succeeded you as Sheriff?
Yes sir.
64: Is he living at the present time?
The man who succeeded me?
65: Yes sir?
No sir.
66: What was his name?
No sir, he is not living now. He has been dead for a good many years? His name was King. John King.
67: The same one that was the leader of the mob here that you spoke of a few minutes ago?
Yes sir.
68: I will ask you to state, if you know, how long he continued in that office?
As Sheriff?
69: Yes sir?
He continued four years. If it is in order I would state further that it is probable that that transaction of King’s being elected Sheriff made him the Sheriff of this county.
70: That is hardly clear and it would be in order for you to explain what you mean?
Well I mean to say that it is probable that his connection with, and the part he played in driving the Mormons out of this country made him Sheriff, – as the cause of his being elected Sheriff of this county. It is altogether likely that that was the reason he was elected.
71: You refer to the part he took with the Mormons?
Yes sir, the part he took in that transaction with the Mormons elected him sheriff I have no doubt.
72: Were you acquainted with the people who were Mormons or many of them that were here at that time, but I cannot say I was well acquainted with them.
73: Well you were acquainted with some of them?
Yes sir, I knew some of the Mormons, – of course I did.
74: Well just mention these you knew?
Well their names have gone out of my recollection almost. The first man that came on here, – I think there was ten of them, – and there was Joe Smith, Sydney Rigdon and one Pratt, – I can’t think of his name, but it was Pratt.
75: Was it Parley Pratt?
Yes sir, that was the name, – I remember them, – Joe Smith, Sydney Rigdon and Parley Pratt, but farther than that I can’t say who they were.
76: Did you know Oliver Cowdery?
Well I think I have seen him.
77: Did you know the Whitmers?
No sir, I do not recollect them.
78: The Whitmers that were here in this county?
I do not recollect them.
79: W.W. Phelps, – did you know him?
No sir, I do not remember his name either. They might have been here and I might have known them too, but it has been so long ago that if I did know them I have forgotten their names.
80: You saw their papers that were published here at that time did you not?
Yes sir, I think I did.
81: Well what did you see in their newspapers that were published here at that time according to the best of your recollection?
I never saw anything further than common newspaper reporting and news such as is in any newspaper
82: Incidentally of course in your business and your work officially and otherwise, you met this people that were called Mormons?
Yes sir, for it was at that time that I had to help take the census of the state. At that time the census was taken every five
63: Do you know who succeeded you as Sheriff?
Yes sir
64: Is he living at the present time??
The man who succeeded me?
65: Yes sir?
No sir.
66: What was his name?
No sir, he is not living now. He has been dead for a good many years? His name was King. John King.
67: The same one that was the leader of the mob here that you spoke of a few minutes ago?
Yes sir.
68: I will ask you to state, if you know, how long he continued in that office?
As Sheriff?
69: Yes sir?
He continued four years. If it is in order I would state further that it is probably that that transaction of King’s being elected Sheriff made him the Sheriff of this county.
70: That is hardly clear and it would be in order for you to explain what you mean?
Well I mean to say that it is probably that his connection with, and the part he played in driving the Mormons out of this country made him Sheriff, was the cause of his being elected Sheriff of this county. It is altogether likely that that was the reason he was elected.
71: You refer to the part he took with the Mormons?
Yes sir, the part he took in that transaction with the Mormons elected him sheriff I have no doubt.
72: Were you acquainted with the people who were Mormons or many of them that were here at that time, Mr. Gregg?
Not much, of course I knew some of them, but I cannot say I was well acquainted with them.
73: Well you were acquainted with some of them?
Yes sir, I knew some of the Mormons, of course I did.
74: Well just mention these you know?
Well their names have gone out of my recollection almost. The first man that came on here, I think there was ten of them, and there was Joe Smith, Sydney Rigdon and one Pratt, I can’t think of his name, but it was Pratt
75: Was it Parley Pratt?
Yes sir, that was the name, I remember them, Joe Smith, Sydney Rigdon and Parley Pratt, but farther than that I can’t say who they were
76: Did you know Oliver Cowdery?
Well I think I have seen him.
77: Did you know the Whitmers?
No sir, I do not recollect them.
78: The Whitmers that were here in this county?
I do not recollect them.
79: W.W. Phelps, did you know him?
No sir, I do not remember his name either. They might have been here, and I might have known them too, but it has been so long ago that if I did know them I have forgotten their names.
80: You saw their papers that were published here at that time did you not?
Yes sir, I think I did.
81: Well what did you see in their newspapers that were published here at that time according to the best of your recollection?
I never saw anything further than common newspaper reporting and news such as is in any newspaper.
82: Incidentally of course in your business and you work officially and otherwise, you met this people that were called Mormons?
Yes sir, for it was at that time that I had to help take the census of the state. At that time the census was taken every five
years, and I took it in this county at that time. In ’35 I took the census of the state, and of course I called at every house in the county to get the number of the persons in the families, and the largest settlement at that time was here on this side of Westport.
83: Now you were an officer of the county at that time?
Yes sir.
84: You were the Sheriff?
Yes sir.
85: And it was your duty to arrest all parties who were engaged in breaking the laws?
Yes sir.
86: Were you called on in the discharge of your official duties to arrest these parties, or any of them, called Mormons for breaking the laws?
Well there was put in my hands some writs, – I forget now what they were, – that is, I forgew now whether they were of a civil or criminal character. I do not recollect that, – but at any rate I remember it was not thought prudent in me to go where the parties where, as the country was all in arms at that time you might say.
87: All in arms against the Mormons, you mean?
I can’t say as that is the case, but there was a great deal of excitement over the question.
88: These writs, as you call them, were against whom?
Against the Mormons?
89: Yes sir?
Yes sir.
90: What time was that?
That was in the winter and in the spring like of ’36.
91: That was after they were driven out of here?
No sir, for they were driven out of here in March ’36.
92: Were they living on this side of the river at that time?
Yes sir.
93: The witness is evidently away off on his dates, but that is immaterial anyway, – well what class of citizens were they, so far as you knew anything about them personally?
So far as I know myself of my own personal knowledge??
94: Yes sir?
Well I did not have much to do with them, you know. The greatest communication I had with them was when I was engaged in taking the census, and I know that my impression was that they were a rather law abiding class of citizens. I did not, I know, see anything wrong with them. I thought they appeared to be a law abiding class of citizens.
95: Who were?
The Mormons were. There was some smart men among them, but a large proportion of them were of a rather low class of people.
96: How did they compare in that respect, – that is in point of law-abiding proclivities and intelligence with the other people here in this county at that time?
Well, pretty well. I think they were about as good and s intelligent as their neighbors. You know how it is in a new country that the average of intelligence is not as high as it is in older communities, and although in a new country they may be good citizens they are as a general thing uniformed, – not well posted, and that was the way it was here at that time.
97: Is that what you mean by a low class when you speak of them in that way, and the other citizens too?
Well they were generally called that, – they were not as intelligent by any means as the citizens of this county are now.
98: They were not educated?
No sir. They were not educated, and if you have ever lived in a new country
have you ever lived in a new country? If you have you will know what I mean.
99: Yes sir, I have lived in a new country, but it is not necessary for me to state my experience or observation in that respect for it would not be competent in this case as evidence? I was asking you with reference to their moral character, – with reference to their being good citizens, and not with reference to their intelligence?
Well I can’t say as to that, for I did not mix with them enough, and am not well enough posted to say as to that. The most of my information in that respect was obtained from other citizens.
100: And these other citizens from whom you obtained your information were not Mormons?
No sir.
101: Mr. Gregg, where in this county did you reside in 1840?
Did you ask me where I resided in 1840?
102: Yes sir?
In 1840 I resided in what is called Sni-a-bar Township.
103: At that time how long had you been residind there?
I had been residind there from the spring of 1839.
104: You had been there a year then?
Yes sir.
105: Were you frequently in Independence?
Yes sir.
106: were you here in any official capacity during those days?
No sir, not after ’39, for you know I was elected as an officer of the state in ’40, – or 1850.
107: You were elected to an office in the state then?
Yes sir.
108: Elected as what?
I was elected to the legislature in 1850.
109: Now you say that in 1850 you were elected to the legislature as a member of the legislature?
Yes sir.
110: Now in 1840 was there any sentiment against the Mormons here in Independence, that would have prevented the, – that would have prevented well behaved Mormons from living here as the other well behaved citizens lived here?
I don’t believe they would have been safe. I am pretty sure it would not have been safe. I am pretty sure it would not have been safe for them to have attempted to live here at that time.
111: That was in 1840.
Yes sir.
112: I said provided they were well behaved?
I don’t know how that would have been, but my impression is that it would not have been safe for them. Of course I don’t know, but that is my impression, and I told you the reason I spoke as I did. There was the circumstance of Boggs being shot and badly wounded, and the citizens believed it was the Mormons that did it and that created a new the excitement and prejudice against them, and that was bout the time that occured.
113: Then Governor Boggs was shot about that time was he?
Yes sir.
114: Then you were elected to the legislature in 1850 you say?
Yes sir.
115: How would it have been with reference to the citizenship of a well behaved Mormon in 1850?
In what respect?
116: In respect to his being permitted to live here in this community in peace and quiet, – undisturbed?
I don’t believe they would have been interrupted.
117: They would not?
No sir, not at that time I do not believe. You know the time I suppose, but I forget it,-but it was the time the government sent out a military force,-I don’t recollect the time, but it
was the time that military expedition was sent out to Utah.
118: You refer to the expedition that was sent out to Utah?
Yes sir. There was considerable excitement at that time over the Mormon question. These things occuring from time to time had a tendency to keep up the prejudice that existed against them.
119: Well were you here in 1855? That is, where you here in this country in 1855?
Yes sir.
120: Were you acquainted with the sentiment of the people here in 1855?
I don’t think they would have been interrupted then on account of their being Mormons, or on account of their religious sentiment.
121: You don’t think they would have been interfered with at that time because they were Mormons?
No sir.
122: That was in 1855?
Yes sir.
123: And would you say the same thing with reference to 1860?
Yes sir.
124: What would you say about 1863 in that respect?
Well I would just remark that this prejudice that existed against them as a people in this country at one time, wore away gradually. It gradually wore away.
125: Well was there much of it, or any of it left in 1865?
Well it is just this way, that it never entirely wore away, for you will find some people even now that have a prejudice against the Mormon people or against their religion. I don’t know that the prejudice is or was against the people so much as it was against their religion, and what it was supposed to teach, and there is people here yet that have that same prejudice against them.
126: Well in 1865 would that sentiment have been such as to have disturbed them in their rights as peaceable citizens?
Well it oughtn’t to be, but in some instances it probably would all during this time.
127: Well in your opinion would it have been so in 1850?
No sir, I don’t think it would, but it might.
128: Nor in 1860?
No sir.
129: Not in 1865?
No sir, I don’t think it would have made any difference at that time. I don’t think the Mormons would have been interrupted at that time if they had come back and been peaceable, but as I say, there were, and are here today citizens that do not like them or their religion, but I don’t think any one would have interrupted them if they had come back.
130: Well will you please state, if you know, what was the cause of the indignation against the Mormons that resulted in this violence in the thirties?
131: Will you state what was the cause of the violence against the Mormons in the thirties that you have referred to?
Well, I was told, for I did not see so much of it, or none of it I may say. I was told that they made threats, the Mormons made threats.
132: Go on?
I heard it said that the Mormons claimed this country, and claimed that God Almighty had given it to them, and they claimed the stock and everything that was in it. That was about what I learned was the cause of the trouble. I did not hear the Mormons
say anything of this kind myself, but the citizens said they said so. Now that is all I know about it.
133: Then as you understood it, it was something like that that caused the disturbance?
Yes sir. How is that? I don’t know what I understand that question.
134: I asked you if it was something like that caused the disturbance.
Yes sir? That was the cause of the trouble as near as I could get at it. I talked with the citizens of the county and they talked with me at the time a great deal about it, and they said that was the reason of the disturbance at that time. They claimed that God Almighty had given them this country here with all that was in it for their own, and that raised the disturbance. It was talk like that that was reported to me which brought on this interruption. Now that is my recollection of it, and what I heard about it, but whether or not that was so I cannot say, for there never was a Mormon that said anything like that to me, – I didn’t hear the Mormons say anything like that myself.
135: Did you ever know a Mormon by the name of Elias Highbee?
It seems to me that I heard that name.
136: You knew him then?
I can’t say positively that I knew the name, but it seems to me that I heard it somewhere. It strikes me some how that I recollect that name, but I can’t particularly call it up now, or place it, but it seems to me that I have heard it somewhere, I think I did know him, but I can’t particularly call his features up to mind at the present time, but the name is familiar to me in some way.
137: Now in your direct examination you said that the trouble here or the feeling was wrought up by threats?
Yes sir.
138: Well you said it any way?
Yes sir, that is what I said.
139: What do you mean by threats?
That they would take this country, – that God Almighty had given it to them, and all that was in it. I don’t know what that is or was the fact, but that was what was said to be the cause of it. Now as I said before, all that I know about that is hearsay, and I don’t pretend to give it as my own knowledge. It was said that the Mormons threatened to take all the people’s property who were not Mormons, and that they said that God Almighty had given it to them. Now that is what I heard.
140: These are the threats you referred to?
Yes sir, that they were to have all the people’s property, – that is what they are said to have threatened, and that was what first caused the commotion here against them. That is what I have heard, but I do not pretend to say it is so for I never heard anything of the kind from the Mormons themselves.
141: Now can you locare anything as to the time accurately, as to the time of the shooting of Boggs?
Well, I ought to do that, but time has so worked on my recollection of these things that I don’t believe I can do it. It is impossible for me to tell the time that took place, although I remember the fact distinctly that Boggs was shot.
142: Well locate the time that that occured as well as you can?
Well I can’t locate the year, as I stated,
say anything of this kind myself but the citizens said they said so. Now that is all I know about it.
133: Then as you understood it, it was something like that that caused the disturbance?
Yes sir. How is that? I don’t know that I understand that question.
134: I asked you if it was something like that that caused the disturbance?
Yes sir. That was the cause of the trouble as near as I could get at it. I talked with the citizens of the county and they talked with me at the time a great deal about it, and they said that was the reason of the disturbance at that time. They claimed that God Almighty had given them this country here with all that was in it for their own, and that raised the disturbance. It was talk like that that was reported to me which brought on this interruption. Now that is my recollection of it, and what I heard about it, but whether or not that was so I cannot say, for there never was a Mormon that said anything like that to me. I didn’t hear the Mormons say anything like that myself.
135: Did you ever know a Mormon by the name of Elias Higbee?
It seems to me that I heard that name.
136: You knew him then?
I can’t say positively that I knew the name, but it seems to me that I heard it somewhere. It strikes me somehow that I recollect that name, but I can’t particularly call it up now, or place it, but it seems to me that I have heard it somewhere. I think I did know him, but I can’t particularly call his features up to mind at the present time, but the name is familiar to me in some way.
137: Now in your direct examination you said that the trouble here or the feeling was wrought up by threats?
Yes sir.
138: Well you said it any way?
Yes sir, that is what I said.
139: What do you mean by threats?
That they would take this country, that God Almighty had given it to them, and all that was in it. I don’t know that that is or was the fact, but that was what was said to be the cause of it. Now as I said before, all that I know about that is hearsay, and I don’t pretend to give it as of my own knowledge. It was said that the Mormons threatened to take all the people’s property who were not Mormons, and that they said that God Almighty had given it to them. Now that is what I heard.
140: These are the threats you referred to?
Yes sir, that they were to have all the people’s property, that is what they are said to have threatened, and that was what first caused the commotion here against them. That is what I have heard, but I do not pretend to say it is so for I never heard anything of the kind from the Mormons themselves.
141: Now can you locate anything as to the time accurately, as to the time of the shooting of Boggs?
Well, I ought to do that, but time has so worked on my recollection of these things that I don’t believe I can do it. It is impossible for me to tell the time that took place, although I remember the fact distinctly that Boggs was shot.
142: Well locate the time that that occurred as well as you can?
Well I can’t locate the year, as I stated,
from memory, but there are events that might help to fix the time. Boggs came out of the Governorship in ’40 I think, and the time he shot, – the time he was shot I ought to say, was I think probably a year or two after that. You must excuse these slips of mine gentlemen, for I am afflicted as you can see with an impediment in my speech, and that makes it hard for me to express myself.
143: Well you think it was about that time he was shot?
Yes sir. Well I will tell you. I was living some fifteen miles or so from there at that time, and I think that was about the time I was living there.
144: I understand you to say that you took no part in the proceedings that resulted finally in the Mormons being driven away from this county?
No sir.
145: You were sheriff of this county at that time?
Yes sir. As sheriff I didn’t take any part in it, – and I will say that I didn’t have any inclination to take nay part in it.
146: And I believe you stated you were elected to the Legislature in 1850?
Yes sir.
147: And you also stated that a man by the name of King succeeded you as sheriff?
Yes sir.
148: What was his full name?
John King was his name if I am not greatly mistaken.
149: He served four years.
Yes sir, two terms.
150: Who succeeded King as Sheriff?
Joseph Reynolds.
151: Do you know who succeeded Reynolds?
I think Thomas Pitcher. I think it was him, but maybe I am a little off on that point, but I think it was Thomas Pitcher. That is my recollection of it now.
152: And who succeeded Pitcher? (Witness hesitates.) Was it Thompson?
Yes sir.
153: Thompson succeeded Pitcher?
Yes sir.
154: Who was Sheriff when you went to Legislature?
Thompson had been Sherriff, but he serve one term only, and who followed him I can’t remember.
155: Was it Buchanan?
Yes sir. Not Buchanan either. It was not Buchanan, for Buchanan was Pitcher’s deputy.
156: Well after that “Buck” was elected wasn’t he?
Yes sir, afterwards “Buck” was elected. I would remark, by leave, that my recollection of these things has got so bad of late years that I am hardly competent to give this evidence on account of my infirmity.
157: Well I have a few questions to ask you further, and I will do it as quickly as possible, for I do not want to detain you any longer than is absolutely necessary. Now Mr. Gregg, on your cross examination you said that these stories or reports were circulated with reference to the Mormons?
Yes sir.
158: These stories or reports with reference to their claiming everything?
Yes sir.
159: Do you know whether it was true that the Mormons were actually claiming the right to possess this country, or whether these were stories that were simply gotten up and spread abroad by these men?
I can’t say. I don’t think though they were.
160: You don’t think they were what?
I don’t think they were reported by the Mormons.
161: Please explain what you mean?
I don’t think the Mormons mad any such a claim. There may have been.
few members of the denomination that said something like that, but I do not believe as a class they made that claim.
162: Then you don’t think the Mormons claimed it at all
No sir.
163: I will ask you if you ever knew at any time of Mormons attempting, or endeavoring to take personal property or real estate at any time while they lived here, without paying for it?
I have no knowledge of anything of that kind.
164: Now you stated on cross examination that you though a Mormon might gave been permitted to live here undisturbed as late or as early as 1850?
Yes sir.
165: Wait a moment until I complete my question, – Now I will ask you if one had come back, and had undertaken to have claimed and regained possession of any of these lands that they had formerly owned in the thirties, – if they had come back in 1850 and undertaken to have regained possession of any of these lands, would not that have raised the same sprit against them again?
Well that question is almost too deep for me to answer.
166: Well what is your best judgment as to that?
I don’t know how it would have been.
167: Well don’t you think he would have been disturbed?
Oh he might have been disturbed, – yes sir.
168: You think it is possible that he might have been disturbed under the circumstances?
Yes sir, he might.
169: Don’t you think sir, that it is probable that he would have been?
It is possible.
170: Suppose he had come back and gone to preaching and holding public meetings, and such as that, what would have been the result?
Well I have no doubt, – I believe that would have raised the spirit of some of the citizens. I suppose it would.
171: Would it not also have done so in 1860?
What is that?
172: I asked you if some of the people called Mormons had come back here in 1860 and commenced to hold public meetings, and preached the doctrines of his church would not that also have raised the same spirit that you speak of in the minds of a section of the citizens of this community?
Oh yes, I reckon it would, but not so much as it would before that time, for all the time the feeling was dying out you know.
173: Don’t you know it did to a great extent as late as 1867 and 1870?
Yes sir.
174: When our people first came back here?
Yes sir, but you know in 1860 the same citizens were here that were here in 1830 to a great extent. Of course they were not all here, but there was a portion here, for some of them had gone away, some had died, and others had gone away, but to a great extent the same citizens that were here in 1830 were here in 1860, – there was a good many of them here.
175: There was some of the same citizens here?
Yes sir, but of course a large portion of the inhabitants of Jackson County in the sixties came here after these occurence with the Mormons.
176: After what time did you say?
After the Mormons had been here and were driven away again.
177: Well after the time the Mormons had been driven out, right on down to the time they came back again, these same stories had been circulated here against the Mormons all the time, hadn’t they? Had been circulated by the people that were all that time?
Yes sir.
178: To a greater or lesser extent, – it that not the fact?
Yes sir, to a greater or lesser extent. Of course I can’t tell to what extent it was, but I know that I occasionally heard of it from some person who was greatly prejudiced against them, but you must remember that there was not over twenty five per cent, and hardly that, of the citizens that were here at the time of the troubles with the Mormons that were here in 1850. The county kept filing up all the time with new comers, and in 1850 there was hardly twenty five per cent of the people that were here then that were here in the thirties.
179: I will ask you who the county judges were in 1833 if you know?
Well I don’t know that I can answer that exactly, for we had three judges at the same time, – the same as we have now.
180: Did you ever know of any of them issuing any writs against any of these parties that drove the Mormons out?
I do not.
181: Were any papers of that kind ever placed in your hands?
No sir.
182: They were not?
No sir.
183: Were any efforts ever made to your knowledge, to re-instate them in their homes again? by these parties that drove them out?
What is that?
184: I asked you if to your knowledge, you know of any efforts that were ever made to re-instate these parties that were driven out of this county, in their homes again, – any efforts to that end that were ever made by the partise that drove them out?
I have no knowledge of anything of that kind at all.
185: I will ask you Mr. Gregg if you do not know that some of the citizens afterwards went over the river and helped drive them out of Clay County, – the adjoining county?
Well I don’t know that I do?
186: You do not know with reference to that?
No sir.
187: Were you here in 1838?
Yes sir.
188: Was there a company raised here to your knowledge in order to go north and drive them away in 1838?
You know Gov. Boggs issued his order to the militia, and there was a company raised then, that went over to Far West, – I believe that was the name they called the place.
189: There was a company raise here to go to Far West to aid in the expulsion of the Mormons from that place?
Yes sir, that is my understanding.
190: And from Caldwell County?
Yes sir.
191: And is it not a fact that this company that was raised here, was raised before the order of Governor Boggs was issued?
I don’t think it was.
192: And did it not start before the order of Governor Boggs was issued?
I don’t think it did.
193: You could not state positively whether it did or not?
No sir.
194: You do not say then, that it did not start before the issuance of the Governor’s order?
No sir.
195: Was this man Govern or Boggs, the same Boggs who was here in ’33 when the Mormons were driven across the river?
Well he was not here for he was the Governor.
196: Well was it not the same man that had formerly lived here in ’33 and was afterwards elected Governor?
Yes sir.
197: Now what citizens of this county that were living in this county at the time that the Mormons were driven out, protested against the driving out, to your knowledge?
Well I could not say at this time.
198: Were there any?
I can’t say at this time who they were, for it has been a very great long time ago but there was some citizens here at that time that objected, so I was told, and I probably knew some that objected then.
199: But you can’t name any that did protest against it at that time?
I can’t name any at this time.
200: I will ask you if you knew anything about what the population of this county was in 1833?
No sir, I took the census in 1835.
201: Well do you know what it was there?
I did know at the time, but I have forgotten now what it was and I could not say.
202: Do you know whether the county had, – do you know what the ration of the population of the people that were in ’33 was to the people that were here in 1850, – that is, what was the percentage in ’33 as confirmed with the population in 1850?
Of the same citizens that lived here in ’33?
203: Yes sir.
Well I don’t suppose there w s more than fifty per cent.
204: Well what would you put it at for 1860?
Well probably twenty five per cent.
205: What would you put it at in 1865?
Well it was still going down. It kept going down steadily all the time, and for your understanding I would state that at this present time there is hardly and of them left by myself, – I am almost alone of those who were here in ’33, – or at the time of the troubles with the Mormons here. There are some people living here now that were boys at that time, but of the ones that were men at that time I am about all that is left.
206: There is none but yourself left?
Yes sir, that is all that is left of the ones that were in ’25, – I am left all alone.
207: There is one question, and I will not detain you more than a minute, – there was one question that was brought on cross examination before, that I forgot to ask you about. In stating on your cross examination with reference to the causes that led to the people here rising against the Mormons, you mentioned or stated that it was on account of the circulation of these stories. I will ask you if it was not circulated and given as one of the reasons why they should be driven out, that these men were from a free state, and the citizens here claimed that they would interfere with their negroes?
I don’t remember now, of that being said against them. I do not recollect t that.
208: You do not recollect that?
No sir, I don’t recollect anything about that, – though it might be so, but I no not recollect it or remember hearing of it.
209: That is all.