1: Mrs. Thompson, where do you live?
What is that? You will have to speak plainly, for I am hard of hearing, and I am getting old too.
2: I asked you to state to the reporter where you resided at the present time?
At 103 North Second West
3: In what City?
In the city of Salt Lake City.
4: What territory of state?
In the territory of Utah Territory.
5: Where did you live before coming here?
Before coming here I lived in Illinois.
6: In what part of Illinois?
7: Can you state to the reporter how long you lived there?
We went west in ’38 and we left there in 1846 wasn’t it, – yes it was in 1846, for we left when all the rest did. I went to Nauvoo in ’38 and left in 1846 when all the rest did, for we all left there or nearly all of us in 1846. That is the time that I believe the Latter Day Saints all left Nauvoo and came out west.
8: It was in 1846 that you left Nauvoo?
Yes sir, it was in 1846.
9: Can you state definitely just about the time you went there?
10: Yes ma’am?
It was in ’38. I know it was in ’38 that we went there, and as near as I can remember it was about April or May. It was in the spring anyway, and I think it was either April or May as near as I can remember.
We left Missouri in 1838, – that is we were driven from Missouri then, and we began leaving in February, I think it was of 1839. You must remember that, I am a very old lady not, and I don’t remember these things as well as I use to remember them.
12: Then were did you go to?
We went to a place at that time called commerce, but it was afterwards called Nauvoo, and it was in Illinois.
13: Now you say you left Missouri in 1839, about what time was it after you left Missouri that you arrived in Illinois?
It was in the same year that we left Missouri.
14: Well what time in the year would it be that you arrived in Illinois?
Well it would be in April or May as I said before, – I can’t tell which it was, but it was about that time.
15: And you moved to a place at that time called Commerce?
Yes sir that was its name at the time that we went there, but after we were there a while the name was changed to Nauvoo, and that was the name it went by, Nauvoo, as long as we were there, and is yet for all I know to the contrary.
16: The name of Commerce was changed to Nauvoo, after you went there?
Yes sir, and that was the name it went by afterwards.
17: State to the reporter what church, if any, you were a member of at that time?
I was a member of the Mormon church.
18: Can you state what the name of the church was?
Well it was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
19: I will ask you to state what you know in regard to the principle of plural marriage, or as it is sometimes called, polygamy, being taught or practiced in the church at Nauvoo, Illinois, while you were there?
20: Answer the question please?
I don’t hear very well, and I will have to ask you to repeat your question again.
21: I asked you to state what you knew about the principle of plural marriage, or what is commonly called polygamy, being taught and practiced in the church there at Nauvoo during the time that you was there?
Well it was not either taught or practiced until along about 1841 or 1842, – I would not say which, -but it was never taught or practiced until about that time. If it was I never heard anything or it at all. If it was practiced before that I never hard any thing of it at all.
22: I don’t think you understand the question Mrs. Thompson, – the question is, state what you know about this doctrine of plural marriage, which is sometimes called polygamy, being taught and practiced in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, while you were living at Nauvoo, Illinois?
Well, while we were living there it was taught and practiced of course, – that is, it was generally understood that it was.
23: Can you give any instance in which you know it was taught and practiced?
Yes sir, I certainly can, for the prophet Joseph Smith taught me that principle himself, both publicly and domestically, or privately, – that is in the domestic circles, and I knew it was being worked. I knew it of my own knowledge, – both taught and practiced.
24: Can you state how you know it was practiced?
25: Well do so please?
26: I will change that question, and ask you to state to the reporter how you know it was practiced?
grounds above set forth.
Well must I say that I really saw and heard ceremonies to that effect to prove that I know it was practiced, or must I state what I was told plainly and positively by friends, and those who knew positively what they were talking about, and knew all the circumstances, some of whom were living in the practice at the time?
Well, the prophet himself told me it was a true principle, and was taught in the bible, – in the old bible, – and I believed it of course, because I could read it for myself in the bible and see that it was practiced in those days, and the Lord approved of it and sanctioned it, and I believed it was right os course, and believed what the prophet taught me, and he taught me that.
I should desire to ask the privilege of having my nephew correct any dates or anything or that kind that I make a mistake in. I am a very old lady now, and my memory is failing me, and I can’t remember the dates as I once could.
27: State to the reporter whether or not you ever witnessed, or were present when any one at all was married as a plural wife to any person or member of the church at Nauvoo?
Well I don’t know but what I might say I did, for the real truth is I practiced it myself, and I have no better proof than that I guess.
28: Well that is the best evidence, -?
29: State to the reporter whom you were married to as a plural wife?
I was married to brother Hyrum Smith.
30: State to the reporter who performed the ceremony?
The prophet Joseph Smith, his brother.
31: Now you may state to the reporter who it was taught you the principle of plural marriage?
The prophet of course. He was the one that introduced it to me, and he was the one that taught the principle of plural marriage to me first, and I heard him teach it to others. He taught it to me I know, and he must to others, for my sister was the first one that came to me and spoke to me about being sealed to Hyrum Smith.
32: Which sister was it that spoke to you?
That was my sister Mary that spoke to me about it?
33: State to the reporter the fact as to whether or not you ever saw a paper or document purporting to be a revelation on that subject? Cougsel for the plaintiff objects to the question asked the witness on the ground and for the reason that it is incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial, and not the best evidence.
Yes sir, I saw it and read it, and had it in my possession for quite a little while.
34: I will ask you to state to the reporter what difference there is, if any, in the revelation which you have read in Nauvoo, Illinois, and the revelation as it is published now in the book of Doctrine and Covenants of the church here in Utah?
I don’t know of any difference at all. I have read it and re-read it, and I don’t know of any difference at all in it.
35: Can you state to the reporter the date of your marriage to Mr. Smith?
36: What was the date?
It was the 11th of August 1843.
37: Can you state the names of any of the witnesses that were present?
At the time te were married?
38: Yes ma’am?
They are all dead.
39: I asked you if you could remember the names of any of the witnesses that were present?
40: Who was present?
Well my sister of course was present, but she is dead now, and there is no one alive at all now that was present, for they are all dead.
41: Will you give the name of your sister that was present to the reporter?
I have given it before, – it was Mary Smith.
42: Will you state to the reporter whether you lived with Hyrum Smith as his wife, within the meaning of all the word “wife” implies?
Yes sir, I did.
43: Well, that is all.
44: Did you ever live at Kirtland, Mrs. Thompson?
45: You did not live at Kirtland?
No sir, I did not live there–that is, I had no residence there, but I have been there a few times, but I never had any residence there.
46: You became a member of the church about 1830 or ’32, I believe you said?
No sir, I didn’t say that. It was in ’36 that I became a member of the church.
47: In 1836 you became a member of the church, then?
Yes sir, it was in ’36 that I joined the church.
48: Whereabouts did you become a member of the church?
In Upper Canada, as it was called at that time.
49: Did you ever live in Missouri?
50: Whereabouts in Missouri did you live?
I lived at Far West, Missouri at the time of the persecution there.
51: Did you ever live in Jackson County, Missouri?
No sir, it was in Caldwell County I lived.
52: What time did you live at Far West, Missouri?
I landed there on the 3rd day of June, 1836.
53: Was there a conference held at Far West in 1836 after you came there?
Well, I couldn’t say, I presume there was, but I don’t recollect particularly about it, I presume there was, but I have no distinct recollection about any conference that was held there at, that time, but I presume there was.
54: You don’t recollect anything about that?
Not about that conference you asked me about.
55: Well, do you recollect whether one was held or not?
Well, I say I presume there was, but I don’t know for I would not be able to be out at that time anywhere.
56: Had you been married at that time?
57: You were married, then?
58: What was your husband’s name?
Robert Blaskel Thompson.
59: When were you married to Mr. Thompson?
I was married to him on the 4th of June, 1837.
60: The fourth of June 1837 you were married to Mr. Thompson?
61: Up in Canade you were married to him?
62: Where were you married?
I was married in Kirtland.
63: In Kirtland, Ohio?
Yes sir, we went over there and were married there.
64: Who performed the ceremony?
65: Joseph Smith?
66: Do you remember the ceremony that was used?
67: Well, what was it?
It was nothing more than the ceremony that I have always been accustomed to seeing and hearing performed. It was the same ceremony that I have always heard performed at marriage ceremonies.
68: Was it the ceremony that is prescribed by the church?
Yes sir, I presume so.
69: Was it the ceremony as prescribed by the church as is set forth in the book of Doctrine and Covenants?
Yes sir, I presume so.
69: Was it the ceremony prescribed by the church, as is set forth in the Doctrine and Covenants?
Yes sir I presume so. I never paid much attention to it for the reason that I knew it was the right ceremony, or he would not have performed it. I never examined it particularly, because I knew that he would do it right.
70: You were married in the temple?
71: Where were you married?
Well it wasn’t in the temple. It was in a private house, – I forget the name of the man, – let me see, his name was, – well I can’t just now remember his name, and it was in a private house, –
Well it was in a private house, and I forget the name.
72: You can’t now remember the name of the party whose house you were married in?
73: But your best recollection is that the ceremony that was used on that occasion, was the ceremony prescribed in the book of Doctrine and Covenants?
Yes sir, it was nothing else.
74: Well how many children did you have by that union?
Just one, – this one (referring to her daughter who is in the room.)
75: That was all?
76: When was she born?
On the 14th of June 1838.
77: What is her name?
Mary Jane Thompson.
78: Then as I understand you, you left Far West, Missouri early in the year 1839?
79: What time?
80: Where did you go then?
I went direct to Commerce, Illinois. No at first we went directly to Quincy, and stayed there until the prophet was liberated from prison.
81: Then you went directly to Commerce, Illinois?
Yes sir, as soon as a place was provided for us.
82: Was your husband living at this time, and with you?
My husband was driven from his home and gone to Quincy, and was pursued by the mob, –
83: I asked you if your husband was living at the time?
What time do you mean?
84: Was he living with you from the time that you left Far West, Missouri, until the time that you arrived at Commerce, Illinois?
Yes sir, he was living then.
85: How long did he live after you got to Commerce?
He lived a few years, – he dies on the 27th of August 1841.
86: Now are you pretty sure that Commerce, – the town of Commerce, and what was afterwards the city of Nauvoo, were the same place?
87: And located on the same ground?
Yes sir. They were the same. After the saints got their the name was changed to Nauvoo.
88: You don’t think they were about ten miles apart?
89: The two places, – Commerce and Nauvoo?
No sir, I know it was not. They were all one.
90: All one town?
91: Where did you live after the death of your husband in 1841?
I lived in Nauvoo.
92: With whom?
93: With whom?
Whom did I live with?
94: Yes, with whom did you live or reside after the death of your husband?
I lived with my sister after her husband with martyred.
95: What was your sister’s name before she was married?
96: Was she married in 1841 before your husband died?
97: When was she married?
She was married in December ’37.
98: What was her husband’s name?
99: Your sister was the first wife of Hyrum Smith?
No, no, his first wife was dead, and he married her. His first wife died and he married her.
100: When did his wife die?
His first wife?
101: Yes madam, – when did she die?
I could not tell you the date that she died.
102: She died before he married your sister?
103: You lived with your sister and Hyrum Smith from the time that your husband died, until the time that Hyrum Smith was killed?
No sir, my first husband was dead nearly two years before I married Hyrum Smith.
104: You don’t hear my question, – my question is did you live with Hyrum Smith and your husband, – Hyrum Smith and your sister I should say, after the death of your husband, until 1844, when Hyrum Smith was killed?
105: In the same house?
Yes sir, After I married Hyrum Smith I moved and lived there, but I lived in my own house by myself for a year after my husband died.
106: Now let me understand you Mrs. Thompson, – after the death of your husband, you lived alone in your own house for about one year?
Yes sir, for a little over a year.
107: Well how much over a year did you live alone in your own house after your husband died?
Well, my husband died in August 1841, – well it was two years of course, for I was married to Hyrum Smith on the 11th of August. It was just about two years after my husband’s death.
108: You lived in your own house alone then for two years after your husband’s death?
109: From 1841 in the month of August when your husband died, until the 11th of August 1843 when you married Hyrum Smith?
110: Well who lived with you during that time?
Well different hired girls that I had, for I kept boarders sometimes.
111: Was there any of your family lived with you during that time?
Well of course my own child did, for she was a child at that time and lived with me; and for about four months my brother and his family lived there with me also.
112: What time was that?
Well I don’t know that I could tell the exact time my brother migrated to America from England, and of course he had no place to go to, he came to my house and lived with me until he got, a place. He had no place when he first, came there ,and so he came and stayed with me for about four months, but I can’t tell you whether it was the year before I moved over to brother Hyrum Smith’s house or not. I can’t tell anything about it, but I think it was in the first year after my husband died that he was living there with me.
113: You were acquainted with the laws of the church up to that time were you not?
114: And up to the time of the death of Joseph and Hyrum Smith?
Yes sir. Certainly I was to some extent.
115: And attended the conferences?
Yes sir. My husband at that time was private secretary and clerk to the church.
116: Well I am not asking you about that, and I move to exclude that from the record as not responsive to the question asked. Now in your examination by Mr. Hall, you stated that you heard Joseph Smith publicly teach the doctrine of polygamy, and advocate its practice? Now where did you ever hear him preach or teach the doctrine publicly?
Now let me see, – did I ever say, – did I say “publicly”? If I said “publicly” I did not mean that it was out on the stand or in the pulpit, but I meant that it was not taught to me alone, but to me along with others. You know I was not at many of their public meetings, and I can’t say what he preached at the meetings I was at, but I have heard him teach it and explain it to several at a time in private when I was present.
117: If you used the word “publicly” then you were wrong in that statement?
Well now suppose I had a number of friends in the house, – just in the family circle, and it was taught to use that way, – should I call that public or private. That was the way it was taught to us, and you can call it what you like.
118: Well now you will have to determine that question for you are the witness?
Well now that is all I meant by public, – that is the way it was taught when I hear it, and if that is public, then it was taught publicly.
119: Then you never heard him preach or teach it from the pulpit at all?
No sir. Not before that time.
120: At any time did you?
I can’t say that I did only in that way, – in the family circle.
121: Or to any considerable number of people?
No sir not at that time.
122: Did you ever at any time?
123: Hear him teach it from the pulpit publicly?
Well now you know it was only a short time after that he was killed.
124: Will you answer my question, – did you ever hear Joseph Smith teach the practice of polygamy from the pulpit, at any time, or at any place?
I don’t know that I really did. Only I well remember of his preaching and mentioning some things on that subject but not in the way of preaching or teaching us to practice it.
125: You never heard Joseph Smith teach the practice of polygamy as is taught in the purported revelation on polygamy, that is now to be found in the book of doctrine and covenants published under the authority of the Utah church?
Before I was married?
126: No madam, – I am not asking you about any time or place, either before or after you were married, or at any other time whatever.
No, I don’t know that I ever did.
127: Who was present at any time when you heard him
preach the practice of the doctrine of polygamy, – at any time or place now?
Who was present when he preached it?
128: Yes, at any time or place?
Well his own wife was there, and my sister, and I don’t remember them all that were there, but I remember these were there.
129: Was there any more than that?
I think there was
130: Well was there?
I think there was, but I cannot be positive about it. I am pretty sure there was, but that is something about which I cannot be positive.
131: What time was that?
That I heard him teach that?
132: Yes madam, – was it as early as 1840?
133: It was not as early as 1840 then?
No sir. I told you before that I did not hear anything about it before 1841 that I recollect anything of.
134: Well then, do you recollect of its being taught as early as 1841?
No, I would not say that.
135: You would not say that you heard it taught as early as 1841?
No sir. I would not say that I heard it earlier than 1842, for I think it was about that time that I heard of it.
136: Did you hear it taught in 1842? Will you say that you heard it taught in 1842?
Yes sir, I heard it taught then.
137: You heard it taught in 1842?
138: Whom did you hear it taught by?
By the prophet, but it was not made a public subject of discussion until late in 1842, – near the end of the year. Now gentlemen I am telling you according to the best of my knowledge, and I would not be willing to say any thing here that I would not be willing to swear to before the Lord, and I am not here tos say anything else.
139: Are you willing to swear now before the Lord that Joseph Smith taught you in 1842?
It would be the latter part of 1842, – it would be the latter end of 1842, or the early part of 1843, – I wouldn’t dare to say just which it was.
141: Well are you willing to swear before the Lord, that he taught it to you either in 1842 or 1843, – at any time during those years?
142: You are willing to so swear before the Lord?
Yes sir, I am willing to swear to that.
143: Now where was it?
Right in my own house.
144: Who was present?
And in his own house too.
145: Who was present when he talked to you about it to you in your own house?
Well he came to be and talked to me about it, and at that time I don’t recollect that there was anybody in particular present. I rather think that at that time we were alone.
146: Then it was a private conversation between you and he?
Yes sir, for you know he was in the habit of coming in and out of the houses there as he pleased and that is the way he came to my house and talked to me about it.
147: Well I don’t know that, – you say I know it, and I don’t know it.
Well I want you to understand sir, that there was nothing strange in his being there, and in his speaking to me about it as he did.
148: Did you say that you had private conversations with him at his own house about this matter of polygamy?
No sir. Only when my sister was present.
149: That is the only way he ever taught it to you, by
private conversations between yourselves, was it, – that is between you and himself, and between him and you and your sister? Now is that not the fact about it?
Well I would have to think a little before I could answer that question.
150: Well take all the time you want to, to answer the question?
Of course I am acquainted with circumstances, but then I would not want to swear to any thing I really did not see.
151: Well the question was if that was not, – if that was not the only manner in which Joseph Smith taught you the practice of polygamy, if it was no in private conversations between him and yourself on the one hand, and between him and yourself and your sister?
Well I think I have heard him preach it and teach it to a larger and more public congregation than that, though of course I cannot say positively, but I think I have.
152: Are you willing to swear now before the Lord that you ever heard him teach it in a more punlic, – that is a congregation more public than the congregation composed of himself, yourself and your sister?
153: You would not be willing to sear to that before the Lord?
No sir, I would not be willing to swear to it, but I believe I did. A person may believe many a thing that they cannot swear to you know.
154: Well you would not swear to that?
No sir. I don’t want to, but there is a great many things I know that I don’t want to swear to.
155: Now you say you believe it?
Yes sir, I believe it.
156: Well what makes you believe it, if you don’t want to swear to it?
Well it because I think it is possible that I might have heard some things and forgotten them, –
157: Well you don’t think it is probable do you?
Well I know that he practiced it.
158: You say he practiced it?
159: Do you state that of your own knowledge?
160: Now to go back to the question I have asked you, and which you failed to answer, – you do not think it is probable that you ever heard him preach it or teach it rather, to a more extensixe audience than yourself and your sister?
I think I did, but I say I would not be positive about it.
161: You said you were married to Hyrum Smith?
Now hot were you married to Hyrum Smith?
I was married to him by the prophet.
163: By “the prophet” you mean Joseph Smith?
164: Was there a marriage ceremony used on that occasion?
165: Well what ceremony was used?
The same that was used on the other occasion.
166: The same ceremony was used when you married Mr. Smith that was used when you married Mr. Thompson, is that what you wish to be understood as saying?
What is the question?
167: The prophet used the same ceremony at the time that you married Hyrum Smith, that he used at the time that you married Mr. Thompson?
168: The same identical ceremony?
Yes sir. So far as I know it was the same.
169: And no more?
Well now I don’t know that I will be able to explain it. I can’t say that I will be able to explain just how that was.
170: You dont know that you will be able to explain it?
No sir, for in this case it was a proxy case.
171: What did you mean by that?
Well I mean that it was a case where there was proxy in it.
172: In the marriage ceremony?
173: I thought you said it was the same as the ceremony that was used on the occasion of your marriage to Mr. Thompson?
Well it was with a little difference.
174: Do you mean to say that you were married to Hyrum Smith by proxy?
He made an agreement that he would deliver me up on the morning of the day of the resurrection to my husband Robert Blashel Thompson, but he would take charge of me for life, with the agreement to deliver me up to my husband on the morning of the resurrection.
175: That is what you mean by a marriage by proxy?
176: Now were you not simply sealed to Hyrum Smith?
I was married to him for time, to be delivered up by him to my own husband on the morning of the day of the resurrection.
177: That is what you call or has been taught in the church here in Utah as sealings, is it not, -sealings for time only, and not for time and eternity?
We call it sealing when we are married in that way because we are only married for time and not for eternity, -we are sealed in the first instance for time and for all eternity, and that was the way it would be with my first husband, but with Hyrum Smith when I was married to him I was only married for time and in eternity on the day of the resurrection he agreed to deliver me up to my husband.
178: And the agreement on the part of Hyrum Smith when you were married as you call it was, that he would take charge of you for time, and in eternity he would deliver you up to your husband Thompson?
179: Was he to deliver the children up too?
If we had had any he would, but we didn’t have any, for you know he was murdered soon after that.
180: This was in 1843 when you were married to him, was it not?
181: In August 1843?
182: On the 11th day of August I believe you stated?
Yes sir, and in June 1844 he was maasacred.
183: It was almost a year that you was married to him?
184: Was there any children from that sealing or marriage?
No sir I told you there wasn’t any.
185: Is this the only child you ever had, that is living here with you now?
186: Then the ceremony on the part of Hyrum Smith was that he would take charge of you during your life here on earth, and deliver you up together with what ever children might be raised as the fruits of the union between you and he, to your husband Thompson in eternity?
Yes sir, that is it exactly.
187: By what law of the church was that marriage made?
What is that? I don’t hear very well?
188: By what law of the church was that marriage made and entered into?
By a law that was given to the prophet from the Lord. You now of course that he was a prophet of the Lord, and a law giver, and whatever the Lord gave to him or to the church through its prophet, was the law of the church.
189: Well don’t appeal to me-for I don’t know anything
about it, I don’t pretend to know anything about it, only incidentally for the purposes of this case, and that is all.
Well I am speaking to you of the fact that he was the law giver, –
190: Who was the law giver?
Joseph the prophet was. He was the law giver, and whatever he said was a law unto us.
191: He was a law unto you?
192: In what respect?
Whatever he told us came from the Lord we accepted, and when he said that the word of the Lord was thus and so we knew it was so and believed it, without witnessing it ourselves, for we knew that he would not tell us that anything came from the Lord that did not come from the Lord.
193: You were bound to believe it?
Of course we believed it, and we believed it honestly too.
194: You were bound to believe it?
I don’t know that we were bound to believe it, but we did, – that is a certainty.
195: Well was it a law of the church at the time that you married Hyrum Smith, that a man might have more wives than one?
Or course it was or I wouldn’t have married him.
196: Where is that law?
The law was in the prophet, – the voice of the Lord speaking through the mouth of the prophet Joseph Smith, and he declared that that was the law.
197: That was the law then?
Yes sir, and I don’t know that we needed any other law.
198: Had it ever been adopted by the church as a law?
There are some things that I know that I hardly think it is necessary to explain, for I don’t think you would hardly understand about them if I did explain them to you.
199: Answer the questions the best you can. He is only asking you upon certain points, and he expects that you will answer them if you can. He expects you to answer the questions he asks you if you can, and you need not tell anything only what you know, and in reply to the questions he askes you. Now she does not understand he duty here on the witness stand and that is the reason I make this explanation to her.
200: That is all right. Now was it the law of the church when you married Hyrum Smith, that a man could have more wives than one?
201: It was the law of the church at that time?
202: When was that law accepted by the church if you know?
I don’t know sir. I would not venture to tell that.
203: Had it been accepted by the church at all?
Of course it had after it was practiced.
204: Well had it been accepted in 1843 at the time that you married Hyrum Smith?
205: What time?
I couldn’t tell you exactly what time it was, but it was before that though.
206: What makes you say it was accepted by the church?
I suppose it was accepted by the church when they got the revelation.
207: Well do you know whether it was or not?
Of course I do know.
208: Well was it ever presented to the church for acceptance or rejection?
209: I asked you if to your knowledge it was ever presented to the church for acceptance or rejection?
Yes sir, of course it was.
Well of course that I could not tell you for I was not always present when these matters were attended to.
211: Were you present when it was presented to the church for acceptance?
Well not at any time in particular, but I knew it was presented and accepted.
212: Well were you present when it was presented to the church for acceptance?
213: Was it ever presented to the church publicly, as the law of the church, or for acceptance?
Well that is a question that I would have to consider some time before I could undertake to answer it. That is a question I would have to consider some time before I could answer it.
214: That is a question that requires consideration before you could answer it you say?
215: Well you may consider it while I ask you some other questions? Now do you say that the revelation that is commonly called the revelation on polygamy was ever presented at any time or place to any branch of the church – or to the church as a whole, for adoption or rejection before 1844?
I cannot say. Well now I would not like to answer that, for that is some thing that the high council would know about, and I did not attend that you know.
216: Well you are on the witness stand and I would like you to tell what you know about that?
Well it was presented before the high council of the church.
217: Were you there?
I was not there, but brother Allen Smith was there, and he told me that it had been. He handed me the revelation and told me that he had been there and it had been presented and had been adopted by the church.
218: What date was that?
I can’t tell you the date.
219: You cannot tell the date?
No sir, not the exact date.
220: Well was it in 1842?
221: It was not in 1842?
222: How do you know it was not?
Well I know it was not then.
223: Was it as early as 1848?
The time I refer to was in 1843 some time, but I don’t know the month.
224: Well it was before August 1843 was it not?
Yes sir, of course it was, for that was the time I was married to Hyrum Smith, and it was before that I know.
225: How long before?
I don’t know.
226: Well about how long before that was it?
I don’t know. I could not tell you I say, for I don’t know.
227: It was presented to the church before anybody was permitted to be married to a second wife was it not?
Yes sir, of course.
228: You are positive of that?
As far as I know it was.
229: Well do you know anything about it?
I know there was not anything of the kind done until it was presented and accepted.
230: Anything of what kind?
Anything in the way of being married according to the revelation.
231: Now you stated that it was presented to the high counhil?
232: Do you know whether or not it was accepted by the council?
Yes sir, they did of course.
233: And voted on it?
Well you see that is something that I don’t know, for I was not present at the time in the room, and I don’t know what they did.
234: How do you know it was presented if you was not there?
Because brother Hyrum came right home from the council, and told us that it had been presented there, and had been accepted. He told us about it, and he was present himself.
235: Present at the council you mean?
236: Did he tell you that it has been voted upon?
I did not ask him?
237: Well did he tell you with out your asking him?
I don’t think he did. I don’t remember his saying anything about that, but I suppose it was.
238: Did he say it had been accepted?
Of course it was.
239: Well did he say so?
Of course he did. He came right home from the council and told us, and my sister and I were right there and heard him.
240: And he handed the revelation to you? Now whose handwriting was it in?
I guess as far as I know that it was the handwriting of the clerk, William Clayton, for he was the clerk of the church at that time.
241: What makes you think it was the clerk’s hand-writing?
Well, I think it was.
242: Answer the question, – what makes you think it was Clayton’s hand-writing?
Well I know that was the most likely that it would be written by some one. Of course the first would be written out, and then it would be copied by some one, but of course I don’t know, for that is something that I have no certain knowledge of you know.
243: You did not see it copied?
No sir, I don’t know that it was copied either, but I heard that it had been.
244: Well how long did you keep it?
Some four or five days. Something like that.
245: You kept it four or five days?
246: Then who did you give it to?
I kept it until it was called for, – well it was called for by Brother Hyrum himself, and he got it then when he called for it.
247: Were you his wife at this time?
I think that was in June or July perhaps, but that is something that I could not say positively, for I don’t remember dates very well.
248: Well were you his wife at the time that he brought this revelation to you?
At the time that Hyrum Smith brought it to me?
249: Yes ma’am?
No sir, I was not married to him at that time.
250: Where were you living at that time?
I was living then at my own house.
251: Why did he bring it to you in preference to any body else?
Well my sister snd I were like one pretty much, and whatever one had was pretty much the same as if the other owned it, – what was one’s was about the same as if it belonged to the other.
252: Well you were not living with your sister then?
No sir, we were not living together, but we were living close together at that time, and we were always back and forth.
253: Well the fact is he brought the revelation to you, and not to his wife?
Yes sir, but I don’t know how many times she might have had it and read it.
254: Had she ever read it before?
255: How do you know it?
I know it.
256: How do you now it?
I know it for she told me so.
257: Well do you know of your own knowledge whether she did or not, -whether or not she had read that revelation?
Well as far s seeing her with it and reading it is concerned I don’t know anything about that.
258: Now you saw the revelation?
259: And had it in your hands?
260: And saw what kind of paper it was written on?
I presume I did.
261: Well you know whether you did or not?
Yes sir, of course I saw the paper.
262: Well what kind of paper as it written on?
Well it was on, -well I don’t know what you would call it, -that is I don’t now what kind of paper you would call it, but it was on sheets bout that size (indicating a sheet of paper about 8 by 15 inches, or the size that this is written on.) It was about that size, but it was doubled up the other way.
263: On fool’s-cap-paper, -is that what you mean?
Yes sir. That is what they called it.
264: It was written on fool’s-cap paper?
265: Do you know how many pages there was?
No sir. I don’t know but I don’t think there was more than one whole sheet.
266: You don’t think there was more than one whole sheet?
267: Are you as certain of that as you are of anything else you have testified to?
Yes sir, I am certain of that.
268: You are certain that there was not more than one whole sheet, which would be four pages?
I don’t think there was.
269: Well there was not more than two sheets?
I don’t think there was.
270: You don’t think there was?
271: If there had been more than two sheets do you think you would recollect it?
Yes sir, I think I would.
272: Were there any pins is (in) the paper to pin it together?
It did not require any pins.
273: Why not?
Because when it was opened up it was all on one sheet.
274: Now can you mentioned anything which was in the paper which you had to read?
275: Can’t you mention something that was in it?
No sir, I would not try to do it.
276: Do you recollect the lats word in it?
277: Do you recollected the last word of it?
No sir, I don’t particularly.
278: Do you remember any statement in it?
I think it would be “amen” likely.
279: You think that because all the revelations, or almost all of them, end with “amen”?
280: And that is the only reason you have for thinking that?
281: Was the name “Joseph Smith” signed to it?
I don’t know I am sure. I can’t remember that sir.
282: Will you swear it was?
Well I think it would be at the first of it, and I think that because they usually commenced that way, or always did.
283: Well would you swear that his name was signed to it?
No sir, I don’t think it was. I am sure it was not signed to it.
284: Well would you swear that his name was in it anywhere?
At the commencement, – “the word of the Lord to Joseph Smith”.
286: Well was his name signed to it at the end of the document?
I say I don’t recollect. I don’t recollect whether it was or not, but I don’t think it was. It commenced this way “the word of the Lord to Joseph Smith to the church” or something like that.
287: Are you willing to swear that the paper you read commenced in the substance as follows, – “the word of the Lord to Joseph Smith, and to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”?
Yes sir, that is it I believe.
288: That is your best recollection of it?
289: And you are pretty positive of that?
Yes sir, I am pretty positive, but I would not swear of course positively that was what it was just, but that is my best recollection of it. That is what I think it was, but of course I can’t remember every word of it.
290: And are you willing to swear to your best recollection?
291: And that is your best recollection as to what it was?
292: Well now after you delivered this paper up to Hyrum Smith, how long was it before you saw this paper again?
I can’t say.
293: Well about how long was it?
Well I don’t recollect of ever seeing it again after that. If I ever saw it again after that I have no recollection of it.
294: When there was a paper that purported to be that revelation, or that purported revelation, – when there was a paper presented here in the territory by Brigham Young, that purported to be that paper, were you asked to identify it?
I don’t remember, – when?
295: In 1852?
There was a time when there was a number called together to give in their testimony as to whether or not they really belonged to the prophet or not, or whether they had ever been married in plural marriage, and then of course I was under oath.
296: Where was that?
I could not give you the date exactly.
297: Is that when you gave your affidavit that is published in this historical record?
298: That is not the time?
No sir, that was another time.
299: That was not the time then?
No sir, – no, it was not, that was the time then Joseph smith published something, and I wrote it, – is that what you want?
300: No, I mean the time when you gave the affidavit?
I don’t know the date of that. I couldn’t tell the date of that at all.
301: Well was it about 1852?
No sir, – I don’t remember. Do you remember (speaking to Joseph F. Smith) I am asking my nephew if he remembers the date, for I don’t remember it.
302: Well anything you know of your own knowledge, that is what I am asking you for and if you don’t recollect a date just say so
and that will end it?
303: I will give you this advice or direction, -which ever it may by called, for the reason that I know you cannot remember evreything, – you cannot recollect all of these dates?
N o sir, I cannot, but i do the best I can.
304: Now I will ask you if any one, at any time since you have been here in the territory of Utah, has presented to you that paper which you say you had at Nauvoo, the paper you received as you say from Hyrum Smith, for identification?
305: Have you seen the paper since you have been here?
306: Have you seen the paper since you handed it back to Hyrum Smith?
I don’t recollect. I might have seen it in his hands, but I don’t recollect now of having seen it or read it after I gave it back to him.
307: Then you have never had it in your hands to see it or read it since the time that you gave it back to him?
No sir, not that I recollect of.
308: Well now was not that paper that you had in Illinois, that you say you had and read, and which you handed back to Hyrum Smith, was it not on sealing?
309: And was not that the only subject to which it referred, -sealing for eternity?
310: That is what it was?
Yes sir. And also on plural marriage. It was on both subjects.
311: You are willing to swear before the Lord that it referred to both subjects are you?
312: And that you swear to positively?
Yes sir, I am satisfied on that point.
313: Was it not on the particular subject of sealing a man’s wife to him for eternity?
314: Was it not on the subject of sealing a man’s wife to him for eternity?
Ye sir. That was in it.
315: That was what it was on?
That was in it I say.
316: That was in it?
317: And you are willing to swear to that before the Lord?
Yes sir, I am willing to swear to that.
318: Now did it say anything bout sealing a man’s wife to him for time?
I can’t say.
319: You are not willing to swear before the Lord that that was in it?
I don’t recollect exactly what it did say. I don’t recollect it well enough to say what was in it but I remember that it was on sealing and plural marriage.
320: Well answer the question, -you don’t recollect anything about its saying anything about sealing a man’s wife to him for time?
I don’t recollect plain enough to say whether it did or did not.
321: Your best recollection is that it did not say anything about sealing a man’s wife to him for time?
Well I can’t say whether it did or not, for i haven’t recollection enough on that point to give testimony as to what it did say. I know that that much.
322: How much?
Enough to say ti was on sealing and plural marriage.
323: And that is all you know about it?
What I have told you, -I know that much.
324: When was the first time you ever saw this pretended revelation
325: The one that is incorporated in the book of Doctrine and Covenants?
Which revelation is that?
326: The one that is incorporated in the book of Doctrine and Covenants published by the church here, on polygamy?
327: You know what revelation that refers to?
328: Well which one is it?
The revelation we have been speaking about.
329: Yes that is the one, – when did you first see it?
I have told you that.
330: Well when did you first see it after you came here, – that is after you came here to Utah Territory?
Well I never saw that identical paper that I know of again.
331: You mean you never saw the paper after you gave it back to Hyrum Smith?
332: I mean when did you first see the published revelation?
Well it was in the book of Covenants.
333: That was in printed form?
334: Is that the first time you saw it after you left Nauvoo, when you saw it in printed form in the book of Doctrine and Covenants?
Yes sir. I don’t see why you ask these questions over and over again for I have told you that I don’t recollect of ever seeing it in any form until after I saw it printed here in the book of Covenants.
335: Well I am not asking you about the paper. I am asking you when you first saw it printed?
Well I told you it was in the book of Covenants.
336: And that was the printed copy?
337: You saw it in the book of Covenants then after it was printed?
I saw it in the book of Covenants, and that was the first time it was in print to my knowledge. If it ever was printed before that I have no recollection of it. That is the first time I saw it printed as a church law or mystery or history. 338 (Written as 336)
337: When you saw it in the book of Xovenants, that was the first time you saw it from the time that you saw it in the hands of Hyrum Smith, – or rather was the first time you saw it in printed form?
Yes sir. I saw it printed in the book of Covenants, and that was the first time it was printed to my knowledge.
339: Was that the first time you saw it in any form after you gave the paper back to Hyrum Smith?
As far as I recollect it was.
340: Now do you recollect the year that you first saw it in print in the book of Covenants?
No sir, I don’t.
341: As soon as it was published here in Utah, was it?
Yes sir. It was preached here and practiced of course before that, but in the book of Covenants was where I first saw it printed.
342: Did you, when you lived in Nauvoo, have a book of Doctrine and Covenants of your own?
I never was without one after I joined the church I guess.
343: Have you one now that was printed in 1835?
I can’t say. I don’t know for sure whether I have or not.
344: Well you have the one that you had in Nauvoo haven’t you?
I don’t know. I don’t think I have, for I think I have given it away.
345: Who did you give it to?
I think I gave it to missionaries going out, but then there may be one around the place somewhere, but I don’t think I have the one I first had, for that one I think I gave away. They can look around and see if there is one in the house, for there may be.
346: Well I asked you about the one of the edition of 1835 that you had at Nauvoo?
I had one of that edition I think, but I don’t think I have it now. I know I always had one from the time I first joined the church. I was never without one.
347: Have you a book of Doctrine and Covenants of any kind now?
348: You have?
Yes sir, of course I have, I am never without one.
349: How many have you now?
I am sure I don’t know, for I get them and give them away again and get others, and I am sure I don’t know how many there is now around the house.
350: Will you let your daughter get them for me?
Yes sir (speaking to her daughter) Get the ones that are around here if you have a mind to. There ought to be several lying around, and you can get them if you like. (The daughter referred to leaves the room for the purpose of looking up the books referred to.)
351: Now who was present when you was married to Hyrum Smith?
Well now is it really necessary for me to answer these questions. I have answered them time and again, and is it necessary for me to answer them again?
352: Who present when you were married to Hyrum Smith?
Well I have answered that question already, and told you that I could not recollect all who were present, but I knew that my sister was there.
353: You were there yourself?
Yes sir, of course.
354: And your sister and the prophet?
Yes sir, and Hyrum Smith.
355: Have you your marriage certificate?
I don’t know whether I have or not. I don’t know whether or not I could find it.
356: You don’t know whether you could find it, is that what you say?
357: Well as a matter of fact did you ever have a certificate of your marriage to Hyrum Smith?
Well I don’t know anything about that.
358: You don’t know anything about that?
No sir, that was something he was to see to, he was to see to that.
359: Well did you ever see one?
360: She has not stated any such a thing, did you ever see one?
Well I don’t know anything about that.
361: Are you willing to say you ever had one?
No, for I don’t know anything about that. He was to attend to that and I never had any anxiety about it.
362: Don’t you know that the laws of the church did not require any certificate of marriage?
363: Do you say you don’t know that?
No sir, I don’t know that.
364: Was the clerk of the church there to take a record of the marriage?
365: He was not there?
No sir. I don’t think he was there at that time. If he was I don’t remember it.
366: Was Emma Smith present?
No sir, she was not present when we were married.
367: Was Hyrum Smith’s other wife present?
368: She was?
369: And you are certain the clerk was not there?
No sir, I do not think he was there at the time we were married. If he was I haven’t any recollection of it.
370: Who was the clerk of the church at that time?
371: What was his first name?
I don’t remember it.
372: Well Sloan was the clerk?
Yes sir, – that is I mean he was Hyrum’s clerk.
373: He was Hyrum’s clerk.
374: And he was not present either?
No sir, he was not present.
375: Is this the book of doctrine and covenants that you had when you were living at Nauvoo prior to 1844?
Yes sir, and I have had it over fifty years.
376: I was going to say to Mrs Thompson that this book was published in 1849?
Yes sir, I see it is I thought it was the other one.
377: Now did you have one before that?
Yes sir, I had another one before I got this one I believe.
378: That book was published in Liverpool, England, was it not?
Yes sir, but I think we had another one before that.
379: You got that one after you came to Salt Lake City did you not?
380: You got it before you came here?
I think I got it in Nauvoo.
381: No you could not do that, for you left Nauvoo before that one was published. This was published in 1849 and you left Nauvoo in 1848 or 1847 so you must have got it after you came here?
Yes sir, that is so. I got that one here. I must have got it here. I am getting so old that I cannot remember these things very well, and sometimes I get a little mixed on account of my age, and on account of my not hearing what is said very well. I am old and I can’t remember these things very well, they happened so many years ago, and I can’t hear very well either, and sometimes I am afraid I don’t understand the questions; but I want to get these tings right and state them just as they were as nearly as I can, and I don’t want to be doubtful or mistaken about anything. I am very careful about what I say or try to be.
382: Is that the oldest book of doctrine and covenants that you have now?
Yes sir, that is the oldest I know of now.
383: I will ask you now Mrs. Thompson, if the book you now hild in your hands is the book of doctrine and covenants that contained the
law of the church at the time of its publication?
I would have to see which book it is before answering that question.
384: The question is whether that book contained the law of the church up to 1849, which was the date of its publication?
385: Read the title page of that book to the reporter, – that is the first page in it?
“The book of Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, selected from the revelations of God, by Joseph Smith, President, second European edition. By Orson Pratt, -15 Wilton Street, 1849.
386: Printed and published in Liverpool?
387: Was that book recognized by the church, as containing the law of the church up to the date of its publication in 1849?
388: It is recognized by the church as containing the law of the church up to that time?
So far as I know it is.
389: Does that contain the revelation on polygamy?
I don’t think it did.
390: Will you examine it and see if it does?
I don’t think it does, – I am pretty sure it don’t for it was after that, that it was published. (witness examines book) No, I can’t tell anything about it, – I don’t see it in here.
391: Is the revelation on polygamy in that book?
No sir, I don’t think it is in this book.
392: You never saw it in this book?
I don’t think so, I don’t recollect about that, but I am pretty positive that it is not. I haven’t used this book for several years, for I have a larger one, and so I don’t use this one at all, but I don’t think it is in there at all.
393: That is in the book published in 1849?
No sir, I don’t think it is in there at all.
394: Now I will ask you if you have heard any one publicly preach from the platform or pulpit, prior to 1844, – or I should say 1849, the date of the publication of that book of Doctrine and Covenants, the doctrine of polygamy?
I don’t think I understand your question sir.
395: I asked you if at any time prior to 1848, the date of the publication of that book of Doctrine and Covenants, if you had heard anyone publicly preach from the platform or from the pulpit the doctrine of polygamy?
I don’t think I could answer that sir, for I don’t feel my mind clear enough to answer it positively, because I don’t see it exactly clear in my mind.
396: See what clear in your mind?
397: You don’t have any recollection of hearing it preached from the pulpit before that time?
I don’t remember 398 (Misprinted as 396)
397: You were with the church all the time?
Yes sir, I was with the church all the time.
399: You have heard Brigham Young preach a great many times, both here in Nauvoo, have you not?
400: And Heber C. Kimball also?
Yes sir, I have heard them both preach.
401: And Orson Hyde?
402: And Orson Pratt?
403: Did you ever at any time or place hear any of them from the platform or pulpit, preach the doctrine of polygamy before 1849?
I don’t know. I am sure I can’t say, for I can’t think back that far. I really could not do it well enough to say positively.
404: You have no recollection now of ever hearing them before that time?
I don’t recollect of their preaching it in public congregations particularly. Of course I can’t say what they did all the time for I was not at all of their public meetings you know.
405: Well I am asking you about the meetings when you were there? And of course I know you were not at all of them?
No sir, I wasn’t at all of them.
406: You did not hear them preach polygamy from the stand, the platform or pulpit at any time prior to 1849?
That is what I cannot tell you for I cannot remember.
407: Were you here in Salt Lake in 1852?
408: In August 1852?
409: Did you usually attend the meetings here at that time?
Yes sir. I always did unless I was prevented by something unavoidable.
410: Did you attend a meeting here at the tabernacle in August 1852, – I mean at the tabernacle here in Salt Lake City?
I usually attended every meeting that I could, but your question is asked in such a way that I can’t answer it, for I don’t know what meeting you referred to.
411: Well I will ask you the question in the other way, – were you at a meeting at the tabernacle here in Salt Lake City in 1852, in August or September, at which the revelation on polygamy was presented to the church for adoption to be voted on by the church?
Could you tell me who it was presented that for adoption?
412: Yes ma’am, I will tell you. There were several parties spoke on the same day, and Brigham Young presented the revelation, which was read by Orson Hyde I think?
Or Orson Pratt, – which do you mean?
413: Well by Orson Pratt. Yes it was Orson Pratt, and it was read to the audience by him, and presented by Brigham Young?
Yes sir, that is right I think.
414: Well were you present at that meeting?
Yes sir, I believe I was, for I remember something about Orson Pratt in that connection. 415 (Mistakenly listed as number 410)
414: Did they vote to receive it that day?
The church do you mean?
416: Yes ma’am?
Yes sir, I believe they did. I believe so, but I would not say positively.
417: Your best recollection is that they voted upon it?
I could not say. I couldn’t say whether they voted on it at that meeting or not.
418: Do you remember the statements that were made about the revelation by Brigham Young, at the time that he presented it?
I don’t remember, for my memory is not good enough to tell a thing straight unless I remember it better than I do these things I think you ought to take into account my age and my condition of health and not ask me these question, for it is not to be expected that I would remember things that happened forty or fifty years ago, so that I could swear right to everything, and I don’t want to do anything crooked.
419: Do you not remember of his saying that he had kept the revelation for years under lock and key, and nobody knew anything about its being in existence but himself?
Who said that?
420: I asked you if you did not remember of Brigham Young making that statement at the time that he presented the revelation to the church for acceptance?
421: Do you say he did not say that?
I don’t remember of his saying anything of the kind at all, and I don’t remember of his saying that.
422: Do you not, or do you, remember of his saying at that time that Emma Smith burned the original, – had burned the original?
No sir, I don’t remember anything about that either.
423: Do you remember of his saying that at any other time?
424: That Emma Smith had burned the original, or that he had been solely in possession of the revelation, and no one knew anything about its existence but himself?
No sir, I don’t recollect of Brigham Young saying anything about that at any time.
425: I woll get you to look at this book Mrs. Thompson (referring to the Doctrine and Covenants of the 1876 edition published in Salt Lake City) and state whether or not that is your book?
426: You may read the title page as a part of your examination?
“The Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, containing the revelations given to Joseph Smith, the prophet, for building up the kingdom of God in the last days. Divided into verses for references, by Orson Pratt. Salt Lake City, Utah. Deseret New Company, printers and publishers, 1876.”
427: That was published here in Utah?
428: In 1876?
429: Now I will ask you if that revelation on polygamy is contained in that book?
Yes sir. It is in there.
430: Is that the first publication of the revelation on polygamy in the book of doctrine and Covenants?
I think so.
431: That is the first book of doctrine and covenants what was printed, that contains the revelation on polygamy?
I believe it is.
432: Now I will ask you if you ever saw that revelation in a printed form until the time you saw it in that book you now hold in your hand that was printed or published in 1876?
No sir, – not in any book of the covenants.
433: Well did you ever see it in any printed form whatever?
Well I couldn’t tell, because sometimes there has been articles published. It seems to me that brother Orson Pratt wrote that, – well I don’t know for sure, but it seems to me that I saw it in print somewhere before that.
434: Well was that the first time?
Yes sir, I think so.
435: Well let me refresh your recollection, – did you see it in a publication called the Pearl of Great Price”
I would not say pos- itively whether I did or not. I really could not say from memory whether I did or not.
436: Well will you say that you did not see it in that publication?
No sir, I day (say?) I don’t remember. I may have seen it, but I don’t remember.
437: The first definite recollection you have of seeing that revelation in print at any time, was the time that you first saw it in printed form as it appeared it (in?) the 1876 edition of the book of Doctrine and Covenants issued by the church here in Utah Territory?
Yes sir, I guess so.
438: Although you have, or may have seen a publication of it by Orson Pratt?
Yes sir, I may have seen it published by him, but that is what I said I could not remember distinctly.
439: Well if you did see a publication of it by Orson Pratt, it was after you came here to the Salt Lake Valley, was it not?
440: You are sure of that?
Yes sir. I am satisfied that it was after we came here.
441: Now is the revelation on polygamy in that 1876 edition of the book of Doctrine and Covenants? I will withdraw that question. I will ask you how you are able to identify the revelation on polygamy as published in this book -that is in the 1876 edition of the book of Doctrine and Covenants, with the paper you saw there at Nauvoo?
Why simply because they are alike.
442: Well how do you know they are alike?
I know they are alike for I saw it and read it, and I know they are the same. I saw them. I had it in my had, both of them, and I know they are the same.
443: You don’t remember from 1843 to the preset time do you, and remember as an independent act of your memory that they are alike?
Yes sir, of course I can, for that is an easy enough thing for me to remember.
444: And the only way you know is because you read what was on the paper you read in Nauvoo in 1843?
445: Now do not you recollect it from this fact, that it has been taught here as the same, and you have been told by other parties that it was the same?
446: Do you say that is not a fact?
Of course I have heard that it is the same, but that don’t make any difference with me, for I know and am perfectly satisfied that it is the same.
447: Do you know from your own personal knowledge, and are you willing to swear from your own personal knowledge before God, that they are the same?
Yes sir, according to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
448: Can you state anything that was in the one you read in Nauvoo?
Well I read it here when it was published and I saw that it was the same. I would not be telling it as I am if it wasn’t. I am telling the truth, and I say that I am perfectly satisfied in my own mind that they are the same.
449: Well can you recollect any single paragraph or line that was in that paper that you say that you saw at Nauvoo?
I don’t know that I can.
450: You cannot recollect back to 1843 and remember what you read then, so you could not state what it was?
No sir, I don’t believe any body else could either. I cannot tell it straightforward, -that is tell just what was in it, but I know the principle that was taught in that revelation, and that is satis- factory to me I know, and whether it is satisfactory to you or not is a matter I care nothing about.
451: Well madam, as it happens that this a matter in which what may be satisfactory to you or to me cuts no figure, for we desire to get it so that it shall be satisfactory and competent evidence before the judge of the United States Circuit Court before whom this case will be tried finally?
I know it was the same sir.
452: Now the doctrine of polygamy was taught in Nauvoo in 1841, was it not?
I think I told you before that it was not. – at least not to my knowledge. It was not taught publicly at all at any rate.
453: Well was it taught in any way either publicly or privately in 1841?
Well I could not swear positively as to that. I will say that it was not taught to my knowledge, and I don’t think it was at all.
454: Well was it taught in any way either publicly or privately in 1842, by any member, – that is by any officer of the church?
It might have been and I not know of it.
455: Well I am asking you for your knowledge, and that is not what you have heard or surmised?
Well I am giving you my knowledge.
456: It was not taught at that time to your knowledge?
457: Now you were married to Hyrum Smith in August 1843 you said?
458: And lived with him as his wife, did you?
459: Or simply as a member of his family, which?
I told you before that my sister and I both lived together there as his wives.
460: Both slept together there with him as his wives in the same bed did you?
Well I told you I was his wife, – that we were his wives, and both lived there with him as such, and that ought to suffice.
461: Well I am asking you if you did that?
Well that is enough. I have answered the question, and I don’t want to answer one question two different ways. Once is sufficient, and when I say I lived with him as his wife, I mean that I lived with him as a wife and not as a servant.
462: Did you and your sister have different rooms in the house?
Of course we did.
463: In the same house?
Yes sir. 464 (This question is missing)
465: Whom did you marry after Hyrum Smith’s death, if any body?
I don’t know that it is necessary to answer that question.
466: Well we think it is necessary Mrs. Thompson?
Why do you wish to know that, – what information useful to this matter will that convey?
467: Well we insist upon the answer to the question, – we insist upon our right to have an answer to that question?
468: Will you answer the question?
Well after I had been a widow for a time after Hyrum was killed, then I married John Taylor.
469: You married John Taylor?
470: In what year did you marry John Taylor?
It was two years before we left Nauvoo, and let me see now what year that would be.
471: Was it in 1844 or 1845 or somewhere along there?
Well I guess it was in 1845.
472: Where were you married to him?
To John Taylor?
473: Yes ma’am?
There at Nauvoo.
474: At what place?
At a private house.
475: You were married in a private house there in Nauvoo?
476: Then you were not married in the temple?
No sir, not at that time.
477: Were you ever married in the temple at Nauvoo?
Well I don’t know that that is any of your business.
478: You were never married in the temple?
479: Who performed the ceremony when you and John Taylor were married?
480: What ceremony was used?
Just the same.
481: The one that was in the book of Doctrine and Cove- nants?
The same as was always used on these occasions.
482: Zere you married then by what is known as the proxy method?
483: John Taylor made the same agreements with refer- ence to that matter as Hyrum Smith had made?
484: With reference to turning you over in eternity to your first husband together with all children you might have?
485: To take care of you as long as you lived, and then to deliver you up to your first husband in eternity?
486: Together with whatever children might be born of the union?
487: How long did you live with John Taylor as his wife? Did you live with him until the time of his death?
No sir, I did not live with him until his death, for he was almost always away some place, he had his home most of the time somewhere else, and I had my home somewhere else, and I never lived with him regularly.
488: Well did you ever live with him as his wife at all?
489: Where, and for how long?
Well for a short time in Nauvoo, but never afterwards.
490: Were you married to any body else during the time that you were married to John Taylor?
John Taylor had only been dead a short time.
491: Well answer the question, – were you married to any body else during the time you were married to John Taylor?
What is the question?
492: Were you married to any body else during the time that you were married to John Taylor, – answer the question “yes” or “no”?
No sir, I was not. It would not be likely that I would be married to two men at the same time.
Well I have answered it, and I don’t think they should ask me such questions?
493: Were you not sealed to another man after you were married to John Taylor?
Well I will not answer that question. Am I obliged to answer any more of such questions?
494: Well do you decline to answer that question?
495: For what reason, or on what ground do you decline to answer that question?
Well sir, for the reason that I don’t think I am under any obligation to answer any such a question as that, and when I have said that I have said enough.
496: You decline to make any more answers to any questions I may ask you?
497: What do you decline to answer?
I decline to answer any more questions on that subject.
498: Well now were you ever married in the temple in Salt Lake City or in the endowment house here?
No I never was married in he endowment house.
499: Were you ever sealed to anybody in the endowment house here in Salt Lake City?
500: Were you ever sealed to any body in that temple at Nauvoo?
501: Have you ever been sealed to anybody?
502: To whom were you sealed?
To Hyrum Smith. I was sealed to my own husband and to Hyrum Smith.
503: Is that all?
And then to John Taylor.
504: Now were you not sealed to Hyrum Smith after Hyrum Smith was dead?
505: You swear positively that you were not?
Of course I wasn’t.
506: You were sealed to him during his lifetime?
507: At the time you married him?
508: And you say you lived with him as his wife?
509: How could you be sealed to Hyrum Smith outside of the temple?
We had no temple then.
510: Well will you please tell me how you could be sealed to him outside of the temple, when the law required it to be done in the temple?
Yes sir, when there is a temple it was to be done in the temple.
511: Does it make that provision that there must be a temple?
Yes sir, and the prophet when he was there acted upon the word of the Lord and proceeded to erect a temple. If I am permitted I will go ahead and tell the whole thing. I will tell just how it was if I am permitted to do so.
512: That is right, – go ahead and tell the whole thing?
That is, if there was communication between the eternal world and this, and I should never have been sealed to anybody, – if I had not obeyed the command of the Lord, when the Lord sent it through an angel to his prophet Joseph Smith, – and sent my own husband or a message from him in the eternal world to me through the prophet, and to his brother Hyrum that he should take me, and my little child, that is the word that my dead husband sent from the eternal world to brother Hyrum that he should take charge of me and my little child and keep us in this world an don the day of resurrection to deliver us up safely to my husband. Now that was the message from my husband to the prophet, or to brother Hyrum through the prophet, commanding Hyrum to take me to live with my sister with my little child, and he did not act on it quick enough, and so he came the second time, – or he went and enquired of the Lord, – and the Lord spoke to him through the angel, and when he inquired of the Lord the voice told him to go and do as his servant required him to do, and that was the time that he went to Hyrum and told him what he had been ordered to do, and then he sent my sister over to me to break the word to me.
513: Well is that all?
Yes sir, now you have it.
514: Now how do you know that Joseph received a revelation
were you present?
I know it.
515: How do you know it? Were you present at the time?
No sir. Which revelation do you mean?
516: The revelation from the angel, – the revelation from her husband?
No sir, I was not present.
517: You were not present when that was received?
518: And yet you say you know it was received?
519: Well the fact is you don’t know anything about that except what somebody else told you?
Only what the prophet told me, and I know it was straight from the Lord.
520: Did the prophet say that he got it from your husband that was dead?
521: He did not tell you that?
522: How did he state to you he got it?
He said that the angel was sent straight from the Lord with the the angel was sent straight from the Lord with the message from my husband in the eternal wolrd making this request. Now I hope you understand me.
523: Well I think I do. No what was when?
When did I get that message?
That was in April.
525: That was in April 1843?
526: How long was that before you was married to Hyrum Smith?
Well it was very soon afterwards that we were married, for I found out that as the Lord and my husband both required it of me, – required it of us, we did not dare refuse.
527: You did not feel at liberty to refuse the request?
No sir. We felt that we dared not refuse.
528: Now at the time that you were married to John Taylor by Brigham Young at Nauvoo, was the temple completed then?
529: Well was there any revelation that time from the Lord through the angel, or from your husband requesting or directing you to marry John Taylor?
Nothing in particular.
530: Was there anything of that kind particular or otherwise?
531: What made you marry him then if there was no command from the Lord to that effect, or a request from your husband in the eternal world?
Well I knew he was a man of God, and would not do anything only what was right, and I had satisfactory testimony myself.
532: Now will you tell me how you happened to be sealed to John Taylor outside of the temple?
Because we had no temple.
533: Was that the law of the church?
534: Where can it be found?
I don’t know.
535: You have always had a book of Doctrine of Covenants containing the law of he church, and yet you cannot tell where the law is on that point?
It is in there somewhere but I can’t just turn to it.
536: Now don’t the law of the church require the prophet to do the sealing?
Yes sir, when we had a prophet it had to be done by him, but at that time the prophet was not here, – the prophet had gone to another world and the sealing had to be done by some one authorized to do the sealing before he left.
537: What law give any one else the right to perform that ordinance?
The prophet Joseph made the law before he left this world for the eternal world.
538: Gave the right to seal?
539: Gave whom the right to seal?
540: Well you give me the book and page where that is to be found?
It is my testimony that you are wanting I suppose? Is it not that you are wanting?
541: Well I want to know where the revelation from Joseph Smith is, that gave to Brigham Young the right to seal?
Well I was going to tell you all about it, for I think I can as I was present at the time and heard the prophet give that authority. I heard the prophet give that authority and power to Brigham Young, in case anything happened to him and that he should be absent or taken from the church, supposing at the time, or as I do now that he knew at that time, that is that the prophet knew at the time that he gave that authority to Brigham Young that he was to be soon taken from the church, that he was going to leave us and he wanted us to understand it so, for he said “now breather I want you to be very particular about the performance of all the ceremonies and ordinances of the church, and everything pertaining to these matters, so that if I should be called away, you could act without me” . Now that is what I heard him say, and that I can swear to.
542: Who could act?
543: Who was he speaking to?
The Twelve, and they were all there, or most of them at the time.
544: Well now that is what he said, as you have stated it?
Well of course I won’t say that was exactly what was said, but that was about what he said, for I was there and heard him.
545: You were a witness to that?
Yes sir, I was there and heard it myself.
546: He did not appoint Brigham Young the President of the church at that time, any more than he appointed anyone else of the Twelve?
No sir, not particularly then.
547: Well is it not a fact that Hyrum Smith at that time held a higher office than Brigham Young?
Well he was one of the first Presidency.
548: Hyrum Smith was one of the First Presidency, and so was Sydney Rigdon, is that not the fact?
No sir. Hyrum was, but Sydney Rigdon was not then.
549: Well Sydney Rigdon was a member of the First Presidency just before Joseph’s death wasn’t he?
Yes sir, he had been, but at that time he was not.
550: He had been before?
Yes sir, but he was not at the time I refer to.
551: Well he had been shortly before that and was after that?
No sir, he was not after that, never after that.
552: Who was present at that time, that is at the time that Joseph made this declaration to the church?
The Twelve were there, the quorum of the Twelve were there.
553: Who were the counselors to the President then?
Well I believe William Law was one, and brother Hyrum Smith was the other. That they were the counselors when Joseph was living.
555: I mean at the time he was killed, at that time was not Sydney Rigdon one of the counselors, one of the First Presidency?
It don’t seem to me he was. Well of course I suppose he was in a way, perhaps he had the name of so being but he was never there, or very seldom there.
556: Well is it not a fact that he had been a member of the First Presidency, but was out a while and had been reinstated?
557: Did you ever write a letter to Joseph Smith?
I can’t say,
558: Well I will modify that question, and ask you if you ever sent a letter to Joseph Smith, and published it in the historical record?
I sent a letter to him.
559: Is it published in the Historical Record?
Yes sir, I think likely it is there.
560: Did you publish the answer to it?
The answer to my letter?
561: Yes ma’am?
562: Did you publish the answer to that letter written by Joseph Smith in reply to the one you sent him?
It was not fit to publish until it was corrected.
563: Have you that letter?
It was sent to the typesetter in the printing office, and it was the most ridiculous thing, – I never had anything try me so as that letter did.
564: Was that letter written to you?
No sir, it was printed.
565: Did not Joseph reply to you in his own handwriting?
No sir, it was printed.
566: Do you mean by that that it was in type-writing?
Yes sir, and it was afterwards published.
567: Have you got the letter?
568: Where is it?
It was in a newspaper. In the Evening News it came out, and the printer wrote a very proper apology for me for the way it had turned out, for he was ashamed and vexed over it.
569: Did he write an apology to Joseph Smith also, for the way it had come out?
I don’t know whether he did it or not. I know he did to me.
570: You don’t mean to say that the letter was in that condition when you got it from Joseph Smith?
He did not write it to me. He just published it in the paper, and also published my letter in the paper.
571: And his answer to it?
I don’t think he did. I know that I got so vexed over the thing that I did not pay much attention to anything else, for I don’t know that I ever had anything vex me more than that did.
572: Well I have been asking you about your letter that you wrote to him, – I have been asking you about the letter that he wrote to yours, if he did write one?
Well that is what I am telling you about, – he did not write one.
573: Well now was there any record of your marriage to John Taylor made in Nauvoo at the time you were married to him?
I can’t say.
574: Well what is your best recollection about that?
I never asked any questions about that.
575: Well was the clerk of the church there at the time?
That is a matter that I supposed he would look after, – I did not trouble myself about it.
576: Was the clerk of the church there?
I think not, but I cannot say.
577: Did you get a marriage certificate?
I told you before that he would see to that of course. I did not trouble it at all, for that was something that I supposed he would look after.
578: Well did you ever see a marriage certificate of your marriage with John Taylor?
No sir, I don’t remember of seeing it anywhere particularly.
579: What is your best recollection about ever seeing one?
Well I don’t think I ever did see one.
580: Did Hyrum Smith have any other wife, at the time that you were his wife?
And did I not tell you my sister was his wife, –
581: Well any others?
No sir, I don’t think that he had. I don’t know, but I don’t think he had.
582: Did Hyrum Smith have any wife other than yourself, at the time you were his wife?
Well he had my sister. I have told you that a dozen times.
583: Did he have any one else as his wife at that time besides yourself and your sister?
None that I know of.
584: None but you and your sister?
585: Then Hyrum Smith never had any wives but you and your sister, excepting the one that died before you married him, – to your knowledge I mean?
I don’t know of any other that he had.
586: Those were all that you ever had any knowledge of?
587: That is all?
Yes sir. Well now I wish to explain, – Hyrum Smith after I was married to him took other wives. 588 (Mistakenly numbered 586)
587: Well why did you not state that at the time I asked you the question?
Well at the time you asked me the question I understood that you referred to the time that I was married to him, and whether he had any wives at that time besides myself and my sister, and I told you that he had not.
589: Well then he married other wives after you were married to him?
590: How many did he have?
Well I don’t know. I don’t know how many he had, for I never sked him, but he had several.
591: Can you tell any of them?
I don’t know, –
592: I mean any of them that he married after he married you?
He married one by the name of Miss Perry, – but I can’t say who they were, for I don’t remember them all.
593: When did he marry her?
Well there was Catherine Phillips also, – he married her too. (the name of Cathering Phillips was suggested to her by her daughter.)
594: When did he marry her?
It was in a year or thereabouts after he married me.
595: Well he was dead in less than a year after he married you?
Well it was not a year but it was pretty soon afterwards.
596: You have concluded that it was not a year after he married you that he married Catherine Phillips?
Yes sir, it could not be a year, and I remember that it was pretty soon after he married me that he married her.
597: When did he marry Miss Perry?
I can’t tell you that, for I don’t remember.
598: Well it was after he married you?
599: Did Miss Perry live in the house there with you?
Yes sir. Did you ask me if she lived in the same house with me?
600: Yes sir, – or ma’am, I mean?
No sir, she did not. She was living with her mother, and she still continued to live there together.
601: Were you present at the wedding?
602: You were not at the wedding, and consequently did not see them married, and yet you say they were married?
603: Well how do you know they were married?
He told me.
604: Who told you?
605: Well that don’t make it a matter of your own personal knowledge that they were married?
Well he told me so, and I believed him for I don’t think he would tell me anything about it but what was the truth. I don’t think he would lie about it at all.
606: Do you know anything about it except from what he and somebody else told you?
Yes sir, I know it, for she told me so herself, as she came to the house there where I was and stayed with me quite a little while, and she told me about it herself.
607: How long did she stay there?
Well she just called there, for she did not live there at all, but she called and told me about it.
608: Did you ever have any talk with her except that one time?
Yes sir, I did.
I can’t tell you, but on a number of occasions I did, for I was quite sociable with her.
610: Well do you know anything about his marriage to her except what she told you, – that is aside from what she told you?
611: Well what was it?
What he told me, for he told me he had married her, and that was enough.
612: He lived with her as his wife too?
Well I know that he married her, and that she was his wife, and that ought to be enough.
613: You were present at the ceremony?
614: Was that performed in the temple?
615: Why not?
There was no temple.
616: Who was present?
I don’t know anything about it for I was not there, and I can’t tell you who were present.
617: Now there was another lady besides Miss Perry that he married?
618: Who was he other lady?
619: When did he marry her?
I don’t know.
620: Was it after he married you?
621: How long after he married you?
I don’t know.
622: Well about how long was it after he married you before he married Catherine Phillips, – approximately I mean, for I am not asking you to tell to day or an hour?
Well I can’t say for I don’t know, but it could not have been very long. It must have been shortly afwerwards.
623: Well did he live with her as his wife?
I can’t say anything about that.
624: Were you present at the wedding?
625: Who performed the ceremony?
I don’t know.
626: Now how do you know he was married to her?
By his word and her word.
627: Did she go by the name of Smith after he married her?
I guess so.
628: Well did she?
I have frequently heard her called “Mrs. Smith”.
By different persons.
631: When you lived in Nauvoo, and when Hyrum Smith was living?
I don’t know anything about it, – there is no use asking ahese questions over and over again, for I am telling you the truth the very best I know how, and there is no use in repeating over and over again these questions.
632: I will ask you if you went by the name of Smith while you were there?
633: What name did you go by?
I went by the name of Thompson.
634: You were never called Mrs. Smith?
635: And your sister was never called by the name of Mrs. Smith?
Yes sir, she was. Yes sir, she was always called Mrs. Smith, because she was his first wife.
636: Well were there other ladies that you say he married called Smith, that you know of?
I don’t know anything about that.
637: You say your sister was his own wife?
She was his first wife. That is what I said.
638: Do you make any distinction between yourself and herself?
Well I don’t know exactly that I was his wife in the same sense that she was, for I was his wife for time only, – I mean that I was connected with him only by proxy, and that is why I made that expression.
639: Did he only act as proxy with these other women?
I don’t know. I guess he took them for his own, but I never asked him any questions about it at all, but I think he took them for his own for time and eternity both.
640: Was he sealed or married to them?
I don’t know.
641: Was there any children born to them that you know of?
I don’t know about that, – I can’t say that there was, – I rather think there was not.
642: Don’t you know as a matter of fact, that there was not any children born of that marriage?
No sir, I do not. I don’t know anything about it, for it was only a short time after that that brother Hyrum was killed, and we have not been living together or near each other for a long time, and there was one or two or them that never came to this Valley at all.
643: Well didn’t they live in Nauvoo while you were there?
Yes sir, but it was such a short time afetr brother Hyrum married them that he was killed, that it is not likely that they had any children in that time.
644: Well Hyrum Smith died in the month of June in 1844 and you were – and these other ladies were married to him in 1843?
I was, but I don’t know that the others were married that year, – it might have been in 1844 that they were married to him.
645: Well after he died in 1844 you were there with these other ladies until 1846?
646: Now that was long enough for these ladies to have had children by Hyrum Smith, if they were going to have any children?
Well that is a funny question.
647: Well what I mean is this, – did any of these ladies that you say Hyrum Smith married, at any time between he was married to them, and the time that you left there in 1846 have any children that were recognized as Hyrum Smith’s children?
No sir. Now you say it was 1846 when they came away from there, –
648: What I said Mrs. Thompson was this, that Hyrum Smith was killed in 1844?
649: And that you lived in Nauvoo after that time up to 1846?
650: And these other ladies that you say married him lived there, – that is Catherine Phillips and Miss Perry lived there in 1846 also?
651: Now was there any children by Hyrum Smith born to either one of these women?
Well they were either one or both of them too old to have children, or be likely to have children.
652: Well then there was no children born to either of these women?
No sir, not that I ever heard of.
653: And there was no children as the result of your marriage to him?
654: Now I will ask you this question Mr. Thompson, – were these all the women, including yourself, that Hyrum Smith had as wives up to the time of his death?
I don’t know. I can’t say.
655: Well is that all you know anything about?
No sir, for there are several whose names I cannot recollect. There was a lady that lived a little ways west from our house that he married, and I can’t think of their names.
656: Well you can refresh your recollection by asking your daughter?
I know he had quite a number of wives, but as to knowing so that I can state all their names I can’t do it, – that is all there is to it. If I had to suffer for it I can’t tell their names, and I ought to remember them too.
657: Well do you know that they were his wives, or were just sealed to him?
I know he took them as wives.
658: Were you present at any of the weddings?
I told you I was not.
659: I asked you in reference to being present at the wedding of Miss Perry and Catherine Phillips to Hyrum Smith, and you said you were not, and now I ask you with reference to the weddings of these other ladies?
Well I wasn’t at any of them.
660: Had you seen any of them?
No sir, and I don’t know as it was necessary I should.
661: Did you consent to them?
No sir, – the , the marriages?
662: Yes ma’am?
663: Did your sister consent to any of them?
I can’t say, for I don’t know anything about that.
664: Is your sister living?
665: How long has she been dead?
For about twenty years. By the witness’s daughter, – “Thirty nine years?”
Twenty nine yesrs?
666: No, thirty nine years?
Well I don’t know how long it has been, but it has been a good many years, – a good long time.
667: I will ask you this question, and it is the last one I will ask you I guess, – did you ever see a child, either boy or girl of Hyrum Smith’s, or that was claimed to be his, while you lived in the city of Nauvoo, Illinois?
668: Exception perhaps a child by his first wife?
No others that I know of. There was by his first two wives, but that was all.
669: I mean your sister or the wife that was before her?
670: Do you recollect whether or not Hyrum Smith’s first wife had any children?
671: Do you recollect what their names were?
672: Well mention their names please?
John Smith, who is patriarch here now, and the nest was Lavina, and the next was Hyrum, and then there was Jerushy and Sarah.
673: Those were the children by your sister?
No sir, they were his first wife’s children.
674: Now was there any from the marriage with you sister?
675: What were their names?
There was,-this is one.
676: Was that Joseph F. Smith?
677: That was all?
No sir. There was Martha Ann.
678: Then where was just two children by your sister born to him?
679: And there was no children be any other woman to your knowledge?
Not that I am acquainted with or know anything about. Witness fees $1.50 paid by defendants. On Tuesday March 22nd 1892 the witness whose deposition is above set forth, was re-sworn on the part of the defendants, and testified as follows in response to questions asked her by Mr. C.A. Hall,-
680: Now Mrs. Thompson I understand you want to make a statement by way of correction or otherwise in regard to your marriage with John Taylor?
I thought I said all that was necessary on that subject the other day.
681: I will ask you to state Mrs. Thompson, if you have talked with myself or Mr. Cabell, this gentleman here, since you were examined here the other day?
682: When were you married to John Taylor?
I told you as near as I could tell you before at the time that you were here. I told you then as well as I could remember at that time, but since you have been away I have tried to think over it. My memory is not what it used to be, but it was somewhere,-somewhere in March 1825 I believe. By the witness’s daughter,-
683: 1845 was it not,-we left Nauvoo in 1846. Yes my dear that is right, for it was in 1845.
witness was prompted by her daughter, and made the answer which her daughter put into her mouth.”
684: State to the reporter whether or not you wee ever divorced from John Taylor?
In September 1847.
686: Were you married to any one after that?
Yes sir, I was.
687: You may state to whom it was that you were married?
I was married to a man by the name of Lawson.
688: Did you say “Lawton”?
No sir, – it was Lawson. By the witness’s daughter, – “James Lawson was his name.”
689: What time was that?
That I was married to him?
690: Yes, – in what year?
Well it was in the same year. The latter end of hat same year.
691: Well what year was that?
That was in 1847.
692: Was it after you had obtained a divorce?
Yes sir, of course it was. I would not have married him without that.
693: State to the reporter what you know, if any thing, about endowments being given in Nauvoo before the death of Joseph Smith?
694: State what you know about that?
Yes sir, I received endowments myself at Nauvoo before the death of Joseph Smith. I have received them too since that time, and a good many others have received them also, that I know of.
695: What difference, if any, is there between the endowments as practiced here, and the endowments you received in Nauvoo before the death of Joseph Smith.
There is not any difference at all that I know of.
696: I guess that is all.
697: You say you have not talked with Mr. Hall nor with Mr. Cabell since you were here the other day?
No sir. I haven’t seen them until now.
698: Have you talked with Joseph F. Smith about your testimony?
Why yes, but nothing more than I would with my own daughter there.
699: Have you talked with Joseph F. Smith about your testimony since we were here the other day?
Why I say nothing more than I would talk with my own daughter there, or any other of my friends.
700: Then you have talked with him about it?
701: What did you say about it?
We talked about what happened here the other day.
702: And you have talked with your daughter about it also?
703: And you have also talked with Mr. Hedrick about it?
No sir, for I have not seen him since that day at all. I have not seen him since that time, and so it is not likely that I talked with him.
704: You talked with the reporter of the News about it did you now?
No sir. I haven’t.
705: I mean the gentleman that sits on your left now. You have talked with that gentleman about it, haven’t you?
I haven’t seen known him since that time, and don’t believe I would have known him if I had seen him.
706: Well you talked with Angus M. Cannon about it have you not?
707: About your testimony that was given here the other day?
No sir, I have not, for I haven’t seen him either.
708: You have talked with Wilford Woodruff about it haven’t you?
No sir, for I haven’t had a chance to, I haven’t seen any of them since that time.
709: Now where were you living in 1847 when you were divorced from John Taylor?
We had just come to the valley here at that time.
710: You had just come to the valley here in Utah?
Yes sir, and at that time it was a wild wilderness too.
711: In what court were you divorced?
Not in any court at all.
712: Before what Judges was it?
It was a church divorce of course and it was before Brigham Young.
713: Was it at the time of the declaration of Brigham Young by which he assumed to divorce all the women from their husbands?
714: Well you married on that divorce did you not?
What is that?
715: I will waive that question, and ask you if you did not hear of that declaration of Brigham Young’s by which he divorced all the women from their husbands?
Yes sir. I believe now that you speak of it that I did hear of it, but I have not thought of it since it occurred hardly.
716: Did he not preach a sermon here one Sunday in the Tabernacle, in which he said that on a certain day he was going to divorce all the women in the territory from their husbands, didn’t he?
I am sure I don’t recollect that.
717: You don’t remember that?
No sir, I don’t remember the circumstance at all.
718: Well now was it not under that decree that you were
divorced from John Taylor?
719: —You say it was not under that decree that you were divorced?
720: —Was it before that that you were divorced?
—Yes sir, if it ever happened. I have some recollection of something of the kind that you mention occuring, but I would not say that that was it.
721: —What were the charges against John Taylor under which you received your divorce?
—Well there was no particular charge preferred, —it was a mutual understanding all around.
722: —That is you and John Taylor agreed to seperate?
723: —And in pursuance of that agreement Brigham Young divorced you?
724: —Have you got a copy of the decree of divorce?
—I think so.
725: —Can you produce it?
—I have it somewhere, but I could not put my hand on it right now.
726: —Would you have your daughter examine for it and got it?
—I don’t know that she could find it, and I don’t know that I could tell her where she could find it. I have thousands of papers that I have got in my possession and I could not say just where that is at this time, because I am not able to keep track of things as I would want to.
727: —Well do you have any recollection of where it is at all?
—I am sure I could not say
728: —Will you make an examination of, —for it and see if you can find it?
—Well I could tell it almost by heart, but I would not like to risk doing that, but I could almost do so, and I don’t like to say that I could find it by making an examination as I don’t know where it is now.
729: —You have a pretty fair recollection of what its contents were?
—Yes sir, but I would not like to risk stating what they are, for I might make a mistake here and there, and that is something I don’t want to do.
780: —Well you may tell all you can of it, —just repeat all you can remember of it Mrs. Thompson?
—Well I will state it as I believe it is, and then I will tell you what I am certain of?
731: —Yes ma’am?
—The quorum of Twelve Apostles were together when it was done, and by the sanction of the whole and Mr. Taylor assenting my request was granted and a written, —well I don’t know what you call it, — By the daughter of witness, —”A bill”?
—Yes my dear, that was it. I don’t remember these words very well, but that was it I think, —It was a regular bill of divorce and one was also sent to the then presiding elder in the Valley here before the body of the church came here. That is I mean before Brigham got here for good the last time, and they also wrote to me to inform me that I was free, and that if I wished to marry any good man holding the priesthood that I was at liberty to do so, and that it was sanctioned by the whole quorum of the Twelve, Brigham Young presiding, and Willard Richards acting as clerk. Now is that not as near as I can remember it, and I think it is about right my dear. (speaking to her daughter. )
732: —Well President Young was not here at that time?
—Yes sir, he had been here, but at that time he had returned again to winter quarters.
733: —Then you were divorced at winter quarters?
—It was written at South Pass on the road to winter quarters, and I got it here.
735: Was that where the Twelve had gotten together?
736: On the road out here?
737: Then the Twelve divorce you, and recommended it to Brigham?
738: They did not?
739: Was Brigham there with them?
Yes sir. Brigham Young and all the rest of them were there.
740: Were you there?
741: Well how do you know that Brigham Young “and all the rest of them were there” if you were not there also?
Well so far as I know Brigham Young and all the rest of the Twelve were present, and in the bill it was stated that they all sanctioned it.
742: Well, did all of them sign the bill, or only President Young sign it?
No sir, they did not all sign it. Brigham Young testified that they all sanctioned it, and he signed it and the clerk signed it also.
743: Well then you were not present yourself?
No sir I was not present.
744: You were not present at all?
745: You were away?
746: And they were at South Pass on their way to winter quarters when the divorce was granted?
Yes sir. We met them all as we were coming out here, and they were returning from the pioneer journey, and they came on back to the river, and we came through to the Valley here. Now it may be necessary to tell you all about this, but I cannot see that it is necessary, for in my opinion it don’t have anything to do with this matter at all.
747: Well I don’t either, but since we have got into it I want to understand it. You must understand Mrs. Thompson that the gentlemen insisted upon putting this in over my objection, and while I don’t see that it has anything in particular to do with this case still I want to find out all about it and see if it has. Now if I understand you correctly you were not present at the time that the Apostles met at South Pas sand granted your divorce from John Taylor?
No sir, not at that time, but it was agreed before we seperated that it should be done.
748: That is before you seperated where?
Before I left there. We met there, you see they were coming east and we were going west, and we met this band of pioneers among which were the Twelve and Brigham returning from the Valley to winter quarters and we were coming out here to the Valley, and before we seperated there it was agreed between us that we should be divorced.
749: Yourself and John Taylor agreed that it should be done, and then you left and came on west, and after you left Taylor had the matter attended to?
750: Now was Brigham Young a Judge of any court at that time?
I am sure I do not know.
751: Were any of the Twelve Apostles as Judge of any court in this territory at that time, or state?
Well I really don’t know I am sure, – they might have been for all that I know, but really I do not know whether they were or not.
752: Well now don’t you know they were not?
No sir, I don’t know whether they were or not.
753: Well was there a state or territorial court called and the divorce granted in that?
I don’t know.
754: It was granted under the church law was it?
755: It was granted under the church laws and not under the laws of the country?
756: Then it was not granted under the laws of the country at all?
No sir, for I did not know or think that it was necessary.
757: Did Brigham sign that decree or bill of divorce as a Judge, or as the President of the church?
As President of the church.
758: And Willard Richards signed it as the clerk of the church?
759: And then you married again?
760: Well after you got that paper who was it you married?
James Lawson. (Questions and answers 761 – 780 are missing)
781: You married James Lawson?
782: And John Taylor and James Lawson were living at the same time?
783: John Taylor was living here in Salt Lake City at the same time that you were living here with James Lawson?
Yes sir. He acme here to Salt Lake City after a while, but not immediately, for he was on his way back to winter quarters at the time we met them at South Pass when we were coming out to this country, and that was the time it was done, but after that of course he returned here, and lived and died here.
784: Now is that name Lawton or Lawson?
785: L a w s o n ?
786: John Taylor was the President of the church here in Salt Lake after you came here was not he?
No sir, not when we came here. It was Brigham Young.
787: Well he was President of the church after you came here at one time?
Yes sir. But he was not the President until after the death of Brigham Young.
788: After Brigham Young’s death, – John Taylor, the man you were divorced from, was made the President of the church?
789: And William Lawson, – or James Lawson I should say, was living here at the same time that John Taylor was here as the President of the church?
Yes sir, he was a part of the time, but he was not here all the time, for apart of the time he was off on missions, – a part of the time he was in the Sandwich Islands.
790: He was an elder in the church?
Yes sir, I think he was an elder in the church when he was here, and I suppose too when he was away, but he was away off most of the time on business trips.
791: You were divorced in September you say, and you think that you married Lawson in the same year, – that would be in 1847?
792: What time did you marry Lawson?
Well I was divorced in September I think it was, and some time that fall we were married.
793: Had the agreement to marry Lawson been made before you were divorced?
794: Was there a courtship between yourself and Lawson?
795: You never had any courtship with Lawson before you were married?
796: Then the marriage with Lawson was not on account of a love affair between yourself and Lawson?
Well I don’t know that it is necessary for me to state all the arrangements that were between me and him on account of my family. It was just like this, that there was such a state of affairs that made it almost a case of necessity that I should have some one to assist me and aid me in business matters, and so on.
797: Then it was necessity that drove you to marry Lawson?
You might call it that, for I needed some one to assist me until my daughter grew up, to aid me in my business affairs.
798: Then you married on account of business principles.
Yes sir, it was a good deal like that.
799: Why did you refuse to answer the other day about your marriage with Lawson?
Well because I thought it hadn’t anything to do with this case at all, and that was the reason, and I don’t see yet that it has anything to do with it.
800: Did you not say the other day that you were afraid to answer the question because it might tend to criminate you?
NO sir, I did not.
801: Well did you not say that it might tend to criminate you?
No sir, I did not say that.
802: You swear positively that you did not say that?
I do say I did not say that. I said that because I thought it was folly to tell about that.
803: Well you don’t think today that it is folly to repeat it?
Well I don’t know about that.
804: In answer to questions asked you by Mr. Hall you answered willing enough, and did not think it was folly to tell all about it as you did the other day when I asked you the question?
Well I declined to answer your questions the other day because I thought there was no necessity for it, for I never dreamed that there was any necessity to go into it and tell all about that at all, – I never dreamed of such a think.
805: Well what made you think it was necessary for us to come back down here today again to take your testimony, in which you have detailed this very thing, willingly enough too, which you declined to detail the other day were were here?
Well I don’t know, for I did not know you were coming, but when I saw that you were here I supposed you had come for some purpose, and I wanted to give satisfaction if I could for that is my general way of doing business.
806: Well you are in a much better mood today to give testimony then than you were the other time we were here?
I don’t know that I am sir.
807: well how did you come to send for us to come back here again today?
What is that?
808: Did you send word that you wanted us to come back here today and take your evidence, because you wanted to make an explanation?
809: Did you not send that kind of a word up?
810: You did not?
811: Did you not request any one to say to Mr. Hall to come back, that you wanted to make an explanation of your testimony?
I wish I could call to mind how that is, but I really cannot say how it is.
812: Did you speak to anybody on that subject?
I don’t know what I said to anybody on that subject. Let me see. (witness reflects.) I can’t remember what it was. I am getting so old and feeble and my memory is so defective that I cannot remember some things of recent date half as well as I can some things that happened sixty years ago.
813: Now you said you received endowments in Nauvoo before the death of Joseph Smith?
814: At what place?
815: I mean at what place in Nauvoo? In what building?
In the Masonic Hall I rather think it was.
816: In the Masonic Hall?
Yes sir, I think so. I think that was where it was.
817: Was all the ceremony performed in the Masonic Hall?
818: That washing was one in the Masonic Hall was it?
819: And the anointing with oil was too?
820: Now what furniture was in the hall at the time?
821: Answer the question, – what furniture was in the hall at the time the endowment ceremony was performed?
Well now if you are expecting me to tell you all about the particulars of what was there in the way of furniture, and what was done there, – you must not expect me to do it any more than you would expect a Mason or an Odd Fellow or any other member of a secret society to reveal the secrets of their order.
822: Well Mr. Hall does not object to your answering the question , for we are not asking you anything about what transpired in the hall during the ceremony of conferring the endowments, but simply ask you about what was in the hall in the way of furniture? Mr. Hall asked you about the endowments, and now we have the right to find out what was done if we can?
Well I don’t remember of him asking me anything about that at all.
823: Well I am not asking you about the ceremony?
Well go on.
824: Well I asked you what was in the hall at the time the endowments were conferred in the way of furniture?
Well I think to answer that question would be quite improper.
825: Was the furniture the same as is in any ordinary masonic lodge, room or hall?
Well it was the same as we have in the temple.
826: Well I don’t know hat you have in the temple Mrs. Thompson?
Well I thought you wanted to know if it was the same.
827: No, I wanted to know if it was the same as it is in any Masonic Lodge?
I can’t say.
828: You can’t say how that was?
I never was in a Masonic Lodge to my knowledge, and so I can’t say how they are furnished.
829: You were in this one in Nauvoo?
I never was in a Masonic Lodge when there was any business carried on at all.
830: You were there when they were receiving the endowments?
831: Well did not the Masonic lodge occupy it at the same time?
832: Well I don’t mean at the exact precise time that the endowments were being conferred, but there was a Masonic lodge that met there at regular specified meeting times, was there not?
Well I don’t know. I would not say positively, but I think there was, although I might be mistaken in that. I would not say that it was in the Masonic Lodge room either for some times we met in a large brick room there over the store, and I would be almost afraid to say for certain that we always met in that hall, but I think we did almost all the time. I know that I recollect something about the Masonic Lodge being used.
833: The Masonic Lodge was held over the store was it not?
No sir. I don’t think it was.
834: Well the room that the lodge met in was over the store wasn’t it?
No sir, I think not.
835: You don’t think it was?
836: Now in taking your endowments did you change your clothing?
Well I don’t know what I am bound to answer that question. I don’t know that that has any thing to do with this matter at all. I don’t think that that is a matter that you really want to know anything about.
837: Well did you not take an oath here to tell the truth and the whole truth?
Yes sir, I think I did, but when I took that oath I was mistaken about it for I know I know I ought not to tell anything I am under an obligation not to tell anything about. I did not mean when I took the oath that I was to tell some thing I had no right to tell, and which it was not my place to tell.
838: Well you took an oath to tell the truth the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
839: And now you don’t want to disclose a part of the truth to me do you??
Well that is something I ought not to tell.
I could not conscientiously do that, any more than I could conscientiously break my oath.
840: Now you did not take any obligation did you Mrs. Thompson, not to say at any time whether you changed your clothing or not?
No sir, but at the same time I do not feel that I would be able to answer that question.
841: Well did you change your clothing in the taking of the endowments?
842: You did?
Yes sir, we did.
843: And you did yourself?
844: How many rooms were there in the
always two rooms.
845: There was always two rooms?
Yes sir, – no I was mistaken about that, – there was always three rooms I think. Yes it was three rooms.
846: Two of them were ante-rooms, and the other one was the main room where the ceremonies were conducted?
847: There was a place in one of the ante-rooms where you were washed and anointed with oil?
848: Did they anoint the whole body with oil or just the head?
Well now there it is, – you are asking these question and I have answered then as far as I can, but these are questions, – or that is a question that I do not feel that I am called on to answer.
849: Did you take an oath not to tell at any time?
850: You did not take that kind of an oath?
851: Well then will you answer the question I ask you when they are question that relate to matters that you have not taken an oath not to divulge?
852: You will not answer the question?
853: Why not, – why do you refuse to answer the question?
I will not answer them for I do not feel disposed myself, not to answer them, for I don’t think it is necessary.
854: You don’t think it is necessary that you should answer them?
855: And that is your reason for your refusal to answer them?
856: You have been through two or three endowments since that time?
Yes sir. Still that is nothing whatever to do with this case that I can see.
857: Well have you been through two or three endowments since that time?
Well I suppose you understand that act for our dead sometimes, and I have been through endowments for my deceased friends.
858: Your endowments in Nauvoo were not for your deceased friends?
Well no, – yes we did then.
859: Well, were your endowments in Nauvoo for your deceased friends?
I guess not.
860: Well were they?
No sir, that was not till we got out here.
861: Now you don’t pretend that the endowments that you took in Nauvoo, were the endowments that are spoken of in the revelation of 1841?
I see no difference in them at any time.
862: Well were they the endowments that are referred to in the boo of Doctrine and Covenants in the revelation of 1841?
Yes sir, that is the same.
863: Now don’t the book of Doctrine and Covenants say that they must be performed in the temple?
Where there is a temple they are to be performed there.
864: Does the book say that they are to be performed in the temple?
865: What does the book say, – does it say “when there is a temple”?
866: You are satisfied that the book says when there is a temple the endowments are to be performed in it?
867: You are satisfied that that is what the Lord said?
Yes sir. I am satisfied that that is what the Lord said to Joseph, because he told us to.
868: Who told you so, – the Lord or Joseph?
Joseph told us so, and I am satisfied that the Lord told him so.
869: You remember everything just as Joseph told you?
Yes sir, I believe I do.
870: Did he tell you that all the endowments could be offered in the temple when you had one, and out of the temple when you did not have one?
871: He told you that, is that what you say?
He told us that the Lord accepted them just the same when we had no temple, and were doing our best to build it then he told us the Lord would accept it when it was offered in a suitable place.
872: You say that Joseph told you that the Lord accepted your endowments when they were offered outside the temple, in just the same manner as he would accept them if they were offered in the temple?
873: Now you are sure that is what he said?
874: But the revelation on that subject declares don’t it, that they would not be accepted outside of the temple, that they would not be accepted unless they were offered in the temple.
875: And it does not state that?
No sir, it does not.
876: You are certain of that?
Yes sir. I am certain that the word of the Lord was that they would be accepted when they were offered outside of the temple if we were doing all we could to provide a temple, they would not be rejected because of the fact that we did not have a temple.
877: You are certain that was the word of the Lord?
Yes sir. I am certain of it.
878: Now were the endowments that you took in Nauvoo the same endowments that you took here? I refer to the endowments that you took for the dead in Nauvoo?
Yes sir, they were exactly the same.
879: Did you say they were not exactly the same?
I said they were exactly the same.
880: Then you took endowments for the dead in Nauvoo?
I told you that I was not sure that I did, and so I don’t say positively.
881: Did you not just say that the endowments that you took for the dead were exactly the same as the endowments that you took here?
I said that I did not know whether they were or not. I said that I was not sure that I took the endowments there, but I think I didm and the endowments I took there were exactly the same as what I took here.
882: Well were the endowments for the dead the same as the endowments for the living?
883: Just exactly the same.
884: In performing or conferring the endowments for the dead did they anoint all over the body?
Now there you are getting at the same question that you asked before and I objected to answering it.
885: Do you decline to answer that question?
886: Have you taken and obligation not to reveal that?
887: Then why not tell me about that?
Because I don’t feel disposed to tell you, that is something that you have no business to ask me, and so I don’t feel like answering you.
888: You do not feel disposed to answer that question?
No sir. I don’t feel disposed to answer it, for as I said, I don’t see that it is necessary that I should, and therefore I decline to answer it. If it is necessary for any purpose I can’t see what it is.
889: Well Mrs. Thompson we conceive that it is necessary for you to answer it. You have sworn here that the endowments were the same, and we conceive that it is necessary for you to answer them
to show the court what the endowments were, and let the court decide whether or not they are the same?
Well I say that it is not necessary anyway.
890: Well we insist that it is necessary, and we insist upon an answer? We think it is necessary for you to tell just what the endowments were in Nauvoo, and then tell just what they were her in Salt Lake, and then the Court will be able to say whether or not there was any difference?
891: Do you still decline to answer the question?
I don’t wish to tell anything more than is really necessary, and I don’t think that is necessary.
892: So you decline to answer it do you?
893: Do you say at the same time that you have not taken any obligation not to tell it?
894: And the only reason you decline to tell it is because you don’t think it is necessary?
Yes sir, and I don’t feel disposed to do so.
895: And yet you have been sworn to tell the whole truth?
896: And you decline now to do it?
I don’t decline to tell anything that I believe I ought to tell, -that anybody ought to require me to tell. I don’t decline to do that. This is something though that I ought not to be required to tell.
897: Well that is your reason for refusing to answer the question?
Yes sir, and I would like to ask you one question, and that is whether there is any more impropriety in my refusing to tell every little particular in these matters, than it is for a Mason to tell the particulars of the ceremonies that he sees?
898: You want us to believe your statement that they were the same?
899: Well we cannot accept your statement that they are the same unless that statement, nor would we believe anybody’s insupported statement, unless we were permitted to esquire into it, and if you want us to believe it just answer out questions?
Well I can’t answer that.
900: Now in answer to Mr. Hall’s questions you answered that the ceremonies in Nauvoo in conferring those endowments were precisely the same as the ceremonies here?
901: Now when you have done that you opened the door for cross examination, and that permits me to ask you what the ceremonies were here and there, and then it is for the court to say whether they are the
same, – it is for the court to say whether they are alike or not?
902: Now you say that the Lord accepted your endowments that were performed outside of the temple in Nauvoo, just the same as if they had been performed in the temple? Is that what you say now?
Yes sir, I believe so. I believe that was what I said.
903: Well do you say so now?
904: And you believe that in the face of this revelation that I will read to you from exhibit “A” paragraph thirty seven, section one hundred and twenty four, on page one hundred and thirty three, – just get your book of Doctrine and Covenants and read that (witness gets book). Now read that.
Well I can’t see any difference at all from what I have stated. It is the same as I stated I think, for I can’t see any difference. I have stated over and over again that the Lord, – that it was revealed to Joseph that the Lord accepted of what we did outside of the temple when we did it. He accepted of it just the same as if we did it in the temple, – that is when we did it in a place that was dedicated, as we always did it in such a place. He accepted it just the same as if we did it in a temple, when we were dong the very best we could to build a temple. Of course he would not reject it, or deprive us of the right to do these things simply because we did not have a temple, and had not time to have built one, when we were doing our best to build one.
905: And still you say that the Lord accepted of your endowments in the face of this revelation, which reads this way, – “And again verily I say unto you, how shall your washings be acceptable unto me, except you perform them in a house which you were built to my name.” What do you say to that?
I say that is perfectly correct. That is correct, because he told Joseph the Prophet, that when we did not have a house erected in his name, that when we performed them outside of such a house in a place that was dedicated to this name that he would accept them.
906: Who did he tell that to?
To Joseph Smith.
907: Well hold on, -was Joseph Smith the prophet, above the law, – did he make the law?
Yes sir he made the church law, – that is the Lord made the law and Joseph wrote it.
908: Well this that I have read was the law of the church?
909: Now Joseph could not make a law that was in conflict with that which I have read?
No sir. Not without he had the word of the Lord for it.
910: Now I will read the next paragraph, – thirty eight of the same section but on the next page? It is as follows, ——– “For this cause I
commanded. Moses, that he should build a tabernacle, that they should bear it with them in the wilderness and to build a house in the land of promise, that those ordinances might be revealed that had been hid from before the world was. ” What do you say to that?
Yes sir, that is right, – that is correct.
911: Now the ordinances could not be revealed without the house, could they?
They could not be revealed to any individual outside of a house that had been dedicated for that purpose.
912: The temple was not finished then, was it?
No sir but it was being built just as fast as we were able to do it.
913: Well there had not been any house built to the Lord at that time in Nauvoo, had there?
Well no sir, I think not, unless you would call the school house one.
914: Well they were not built to the Lord?
915: Your school houses?
Oh yes, they were. Every thing that we had was built to the Lord, you might say, and then we had meeting houses, and sometimes the school houses were used for that purpose.
916: Yes, I understand, but you did not get your endowments in your meeting houses?
917: Did you build your stores to the Lord anso?
No sir, but when we had a room that was used for the purpose of religious worship or these endowments, we always dedicated it to the Lord before we used it.
918: Well was that store building built to the Lord?
I expect there was nothing done but what was done to the Lord amongst us as a people, for we always professed to do everything in the name of the Lord.
919: Well now look at paragraph forty of the same revelation, that reads as follows, – “And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein, unto my people.” Do you recognize that?
920: Well what do you say to that?
Well that is just right. That is all right.
921: Now what house is that, – what house does that refer to?
That was the temple we were going to build and hadn’t finished then.
922: Now do you want to go on record here as saying that the ordinances were revealed outside of this house?
923: Where were they revealed?
They were revealed in the rooms, – wherever we met, but the rooms were always dedicated to the Lord.
924: Were they revealed before the house was built?
I am sure I could not tell you anything about that.
925: now is that not the reason the temple was built here in Salt Lake City, so that the ordinances could be reveled in the temple?
926: They could not be revealed out on the street or in anybody else’s house?
No sir, not when we had a temple.
927: Well they were not to be revealed were they, until after you had a temple, were they?
Yes sir, they could be.
928: Well how do you know that, – what is your authority for the statement?
I told you several times that we received our endowments before we had a temple built. I have told you that several times.
929: The the Lord – revealed that wrong, didn’t he?
930: This revelation that I have read to you here, – or these paragraphs that I have read to you?
No sir, he revealed that to the prophet Joseph Smith.
931: Well he revealed that before there was any house.
built to the Lord?
Well he revealed that to Joseph Smith.
932: Well did the Lord reveal it to Joseph Smith outside of any house that was built to the Lord?
I suppose he did. I don’t know, and never did, that these revelations had to come to the prophet inside a house built to the Lord.
933: Well did the Lord reveal to Joseph Smith that these endowments could be given in a house or room in a house that was not erected in his name?
No sir. I don’t know that either. The prophet said they could be given, and he had it from the Lord, and they were given into these places I have told you of. I don’t know what I could say more, for I have told you many times that wherever there was a room dedicated to the Lord, it was the Lord’s.
934: Well now, is what you have testified to, all you know about the revealing of the ordinances?
I think so. It is all that I know, and I have told you so, but you want me to repeat it over and over again.
935: Well you have been taught by the church out here that it referred to this?
936: Excuse me, – should have said to these endowments?
937: I asked you if you had not been taught by the church since you came here to Salt Lake that it referred to these endowments?
What does? 928 (The numbering started over again here – at 928 following 937)
937: This that I have been examining you about, and what I have read to you?
It always refers to endowments when it says “endowments.”
929: It always refers to the same one then it says endowments, does it?
I don’t see how any other meaning can be got out of it.
930: Then it always refers to the same thing?
Of course it does.
931: When the endowment of the washing of feet, – of the feet, and anointing with oil, – when the revelations speaks about that, it refers to these same endowments does it not?
I can’t tell you anything about that, for I don’t know whether it does or not, but I suppose it does.
932: Well the fact is, is it not, that you don’t know anything about that?
Well I don’t know what I do. I don’t know that I can say anything about that, for I don’t know that I can really say anything about something that I have not see.
933: Well now there was an ordinance on the washing with, – washing of the feet, and anointing with oil, was there not?
Well that was before I came into the church I suppose. Yes it was before I came into the church.
934: Did the Lord reveal that outside of the temple, or inside of the temple that was built to his name?
Well I expect it was since the temple was built perhaps.
935: Since the temple was built where?
936: Well don’t you know it was revealed in the temple?
Well I can’t say as to that, but I have heard that it was, but of course I can’t say, as I did not see it. I have been told that angels were there, and came and sat with them, and that the angels were outside of the temple.
937: Do you believe that?
938: You believe anything that you hear that came from any of the officers of the church? Is that not the fact?
I believe what I hear, – just as I have been talking to you now. Now you have no right to dispute everything or anything I say, because I consider to say anything but what I am at liberty to say, I am trying to give my testimony on these things the best I can, and tell everything you ask me that I have a right to tell.
939: Then you believe everything you heard Brigham Young teach, or preach wile he was President of the church, as well as everything that Wilford Woodruff tells you?
I believe everything that they say as the word of the Lord.
940: And it is a fact that when you are called on to repeat what they say as the word of the Lord, that you repeat it as the truth?
941: And what Joseph F. Smith tells you, you believe that too, as the truth, don’t you?
I suppose when he says it is the word of the Lord on this or that, – I believe it when it comes that way.
942: Now you were baptized the second time when you came here to Salt Lake?
943: And you were baptized before you came here?
944: How many times were you baptized before you came here?
945: Yes, – how many times were you baptized for yourself?
Well I guess we were baptized when we first came out here, and then we at one time had a great, – what we called a reformation, and then we were all willing to be baptized ever again after that, – I mean at that time we were all willing to be baptized over again, so that we might start afresh again, and so we were all baptized at that time.
946: You were all re-baptized in the reformation?
Yes sir. In the reformation we were all re-baptized I think.
947: Do you know that you were all re-baptized?
I don’t know of any that were not.
948: Then you were all re-baptized in the reformation?
949: And you were all baptized before that time when you first came here?
950: That was before the reformation?
951: You were baptized when you first came out here in the new and everlasting covenant?
952: Baptized in the one that is spoken of in the book of Doctrine and Covenants?
953: In the revelation on plural marriage, – you were baptized into the new and everlasting covenant that is spoken of in the revelation on plural marriage?
954: Thee was not?
No sir, there was nothing said about plural marriage, particularly in our first baptism, because I supposed we were all professors of the religion, and we had a right to be baptized if we saw fit, and we saw fit to have it done. I told you plainly before that the reason we were baptized when we came here was because we had a hard journey of it and had come through many trying and perilous scenes on that rough journey we had across the plains, and some had been temped or provoked into using rough language to their cattle and so on, and we all felt that we should be re-baptized and repent of all that we had one that was not just according to the word of God. Now it was jut such things as that that made us feel that we should be re-baptized, and so we all concluded we would be baptized, and we were, but that was the reason of it.
955: And so the plural marriage covenant, – the new and everlasting covenant referred to in that revelation had nothing to do with it, had it?
956: Plural marriage had not as yet been announced to the church?
There was nothing said about plural marriage in that baptism, for it was for the purpose I have stated and nothing else, that we were baptized.
957: Plural marriage had not been announced publicly to the church until after that time, – it had not been announced at that time to the church publicly?
Well I could not say, – what time do you refer to. If you mean the time of the reformation I can only say that I don’t know whether it was before and after the reformation.
958: Well it was either before the reformation of just after you came down here?
No sir, – not plural marriage, – for I don’t think that plural marriage was preached directly after we came here.
959: Well it was preached in 1852, was it not?
Yes sir it was preached in 1852, but we came here in 1847, and that was several years before 1852.
960: now how long was it after you came here before they preached plural marriage, – before the church publicly preached plural marriage?
Well I have tried to find that out for myself, because when you were here the other day and asked me the questions I was afraid that maybe I had made a mistake, but by reckoning it from other things, I find out that the time that Orson Pratt preached that publicly on the stand, – the first time it had been so taught was in 1851. It was when your aunt died (speaking to her daughter who is sitting by the side of witness.) By witness’s daughter, – “she died in 1852.”
Yes my dear I knew it was that time, for I remember that at the time I was waiting on her sick bed.
961: You remember the time by that fact?
Yes sir, for I was waiting on my sister at the time.
962: Then it was in 1852 that you first heard it preached.
963: And that was the time that the revelation on plural marriage was submitted by Brigham Young to the church for adoption?
Yes sir, I suppose so.
964: And was it not on the same day that Orson Pratt preached that sermon, – that is the same day and in the same building and at the time that Brigham Young submitted the purported revelation to the church for adoption?
I don’t know. I really cannot say as to that.
965: Well what is your best recollection as to that?
I can’t say, but I presume it was.
966: You were present when it was presented to the church?
No sir, I was not. I was absent waiting on my sick sister at the time.
967: Now the new and everlasting covenant that was mentioned at that time, – that is, that is mentioned in the revelation on plural marriage, is the same new and everlasting covenant into which you were baptized on your coming to Salt Lake? Counsel for the defendants objects to the question asked
the witness for the reason “that the witness has already stated that it was not the new and everlasting covenant referred to in the revelation on plural marriage that they were baptized into on coming to the territory of Utah.”
No sir, there was nothing but just what I have told you about it. That was the reason we were baptized on account of the hardships we had come through, and the difficulties we had encountered, and it was for the purpose of remitting any sins what we had committed by reason of the privations we had endured or the provocations we had et with, that we concluded to be baptized , and the question of the plural marriage had nothing to do with it. It is a very simply thing and I think you ought to understand it easily.
968: Well were you re-baptized again in the reformation of 1857?
969: Yes ma’am? That is when the reformation took pace, -in 1857, was it not?
No sir, for that was when we just got here.
970: You don’t comprehend the question, -you got here in 1847 and I am asking you about 1857 now, -I mean the reformation of 1857?
Yes sir, that was when it was, that was ten years later.
971: Now when were you re-baptized in the reformation?
Well it was in 1857 I suppose, it was at the same time as the rest of them, anyway.
972: Now why were you re-baptized in the reformation, or what is called “reformation” in 1857?
973: Yes, -was it not because of the new and everlasting covenant that is mentioned in that revelation?
I don’t believe that it was, because I believe,-
974: You would not say it was not, would you?
Well I would not swear either one way or the other, because I can’t bring it to my mind as to how that was either one way or the other. I can’t bring that to my mind one way or the other.
975: Now you have taken endowments in Nauvoo, and in Salt Lake City, -you have taken them in both places?
976: Now madam, I will show this book marked exhibit “D” and ask you to look at the first two or three or four pages in it, and I will ask you if that is the endowment ceremony that was used at Nauvoo at the time you took your endowments?
(witness examines book) I can’t say.
977: Well do you know anything bout that?
I supposed I do, but I can’t see this even with my glasses on.
978: You can see the picture there , ca’t you?
I can see something.
979: Can’t you see the pictures there?
I can see some thing, I say, but I can’t tell what it is. I can see something, but I can’t tell what it is or what it means.
980: You never saw any such things as is represented by these pictures in taking your endowments in Nauvoo, did you?
I could not say, for I cannot see what they are. I don’t know anything about such pictures at all.
981: You never saw any such characters as these in taking your endowments at Nauvoo at all?
I say I can’t tell you, for I can’t see. I could not say anything about that. I can’t read that because it is such small print.
982: Well you see the pictures don’t you?
I see something that I don’t know anything at all about.
983: Well you did not see anything like this in taking
your endowments in Nauvoo, did you?
I say I don’t know anything about that. I don’t think I ever say anything like that anywhere. Counsel for denfendants objects to the introduction of the book regarding which the witness is being questioned, which is marked exhibit “D” for the reason that the book has never been identified, and they object to the witness being questions regarding the matter therein contained for the reason that it is not shown by any competent witness that it contains a true and correct representation of the endowments as practiced either in Salt Lake City or that were practiced at Nauvoo, and there is nothing to show that it contains the ceremony performed at either place with reference to the endowments, or the ceremonies attending same.”
984: You saw the caps and mocassins that were worn by the ladies at Nauvoo while they were taking the endowments there?
Yes sir, I did.
985: Now look at that picture, and see if it is something of that kind?
No sir, I will not look at that picture.
986: Why will you not look at it?
Well sir, I will tell you why I will not look at it. I am afraid to look at it, and I don’t want to look at it, because if it is true it is something that we never dared to draw or make any representation of it, because it is sacred and the Lord never would allow any such things to be without manifesting his displeasure or anger.
987: Well is it here, and he don’t appear to be particularly angry about it, – look at it and see if it is the same?
I won’t look at it because I don’t think it is right, – now that is my conscience about it, and I don’t think it is right for me to look at it.
988: I am not asking you about your conscience, – I am asking you if that picture looks like anything you saw in the taking of the endowments?
I don’t see anything that it looks like to me at all.
989: That represents the robe that was on the right shoulder, and that the one that was on the left shoulder in taking the onligations and the grips, now did you see anything like that?
990: Yes madam?
991: These pictures represent the hall where the endowments were taken?
I don’t know anything about it, and I don’t want you to ask me any more question about something that I don’t know anything about.
992: Well I propose to ask you all the question I deem necessary for the proper protection of the side of this case I represent, and I will say now that if you will be patient I will be through in just a minute or two, but there is no use in protesting for I will do all I can to get through as speedily as I can, for we realize that you are a very old lady and have no desire to detain you here unnecessarily at all, and will not do so. Now, as I said, this is supposed to be the picture of the hall where the endowments were conferred, and this and that represents the aprons that were worn. Do you recognize them?
That is something I don’t know anything at all about.
993: You did not see such as that in Nauvoo?
No sir, I did not see such as that at all in Nauvoo.
994: And this picture here is the picture of an apron that is represented as being worn by the women? Now do you recognize that?
995: You did not wear any such a thing in Nauvoo?
996: Why do you try to evade this investigation, or why do you testify with such evident reluctance?
Because these things are so sacred, – they are too sacred for any body to try to imitate.
997: You don’t mean to say these are sacred in this book.
No sir, I don’t say that, but I do say that the endowments are sacred, and nobody has ny right to make light of them in any way, nor are they anything to be copied.
998: Well I have not asked you to disclose anything you said or done yet, have I? I haven’t sked you to disclose anything you said or done, or anything you took an obligation not to reveal, nor am I going to do that Mrs. Thompson.
999: Now Mrs. Thompson, you stated that you never seen anything like that in Nauvoo?
Yes sir, I never saw anything like that there.
1000: Did you ever see anything like that in any of the endowments you went through anywhere?
No sir, and I don’t know anything about it.
1001: You never saw anything like it either in Salt Lake City – or in Nauvoo?
No sir. There is no picture there that I can recognize at all.
1002: Now Mrs. Thompson will you swear that the garments that are pictured in here, are not the garments that are worn in Salt Lake City when taking the endowments?
I would not swear.
1003: You would not swear that they are not the garments that are used here in Salt Lake City in the taking of the endowments, – that these are not the very garments that are used?
I say I don’t know that any such things were used here.
1004: The ladies used caps here in taking their endowments?
1005: And mocassins?
1006: Let the record show that the daughter of the witness is urging the witness to leave the room.