1: Give your full name to the reporter, please?
My name is Joseph Bates Noble.
2: You reside here in Utah Territory?
3: Well, whereabouts do you reside, Mr. Noble?
I reside in Davis Stake, – Davis County you might call it, at Bountiful.
4: What territory is that in Mr. Noble?
5: What is the name of the place you said you lived in?
West Bountiful it is called, – there is three Bountifuls and I live in what is called West Bountiful.
6: Where did you live before moving to Utah Territory?
I lived in the city here for a period of time before moving out there.
7: Well I asked you where you lived before you came to Utah Territory?
I lived in Nauvoo, – near Nauvoo part of the time.
8: State what year you moved to Nauvoo, – if you ever did move there?
I lived in 1839 to Lee County, – that is right opposite Nauvoo.
9: When did you first go to Nauvoo to live?
I moved to Nauvoo in 1841 from Lee County.
10: How long did you reside at Nauvoo?
I resided in Nauvoo until 1846. At the time of the exodus I left there.
11: Did you belong to any church while living there?
Whilst living at Nauvoo?
12: Yes sir?
13: You may answer the question?
14: What church did you belong to?
I belonged to the “church of “Christ” as we call it. It was called the “church of Christ” or the “church of Latter Day Saints.”
15: State that the full name of the church was Mr. Moble?
It was called the “church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”.
16: Who was, or what was the highest officer in that church?
What is that?
17: Who was the highest officer in that church?
18: State to the reporter whether or not you held any office in that church?
19: What was the office you held?
Well I was the bishop’s counselor, – one of them, – when we organized there.
20: Who was the bishop?
Judge Elias Smith who is now dead was the bishop and I was one of the counselors. I remained there, as I said, in Lee County across the river from Nauvoo, until 1841, and then I came across the river to Nauvoo.
21: Well after you moved to Nauvoo did you hold any office in the church?
22: What was that office?
I held the office of bishop in the fifth ward.
23: What priesthood did you hold?
24: Yes sir?
The Melchisedek Priesthood.
25: What office in the Melchisedek priesthood did you hold?
As I said before, the office of bishop, which is a high priest.
26: You were an high priest then?
27: I will ask you to state to the reporter Mr. Noble what you know if anything, about the doctrine of plural marriage, sometimes or commonly called “polygamy” being taught or practiced in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, before the death of Joseph Smith the prophet?
28: Answer the question, if you can?
Please put the question again?
29: I asked you to state to the reporter what you knew if any thing, about the doctrine of plural marriage, commonly called “polygamy being taught or practice in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, of which you were and are a member, at Nauvoo, during the life of Joseph Smith, the prophet?
Yes sir, it was taught by Joseph Smith.
I don’t feel very well, for I have taken cold, – it is about half and half I think.
30: State to the reporter any circumstance or time or place, where the principle of plural marriage was taught?
31: Where the doctrine of plural marriage was taught at Nauvoo before the death of Joseph Smith?
What is that?
32: Do you understand the question?
33: Well you may answer it?
Well he objects.
34: Never mind his objection, but just answer the question as soon as he gets through with his objection, — give him time to make his objection and then go ahead and answer the question?
Well it was at my house.
35: Who taught the doctrine of plural marriage at your house?
Joseph Smith the prophet did.
36: State now that you know further in regard to this, – to his teaching or practicing the doctrine of plural marriage?
Please state the question again.
37: State what you know, if anything further, in regard to his teaching or practicing that principle of plural marriage?
I feel so feeble I can hardly answer these questions, – please put that question again?
38: I asked you to state to the reporter what you knew in regard to Joseph’s teaching or practicing the doctrine of plural marriage during his lifetime there in Nauvoo, – what you know about that further than what you have stated?
Well he taught it in my house and practiced it also. answer of the witness from the record on the ground that it is incompetent and immaterial, and not responsive to the question asked.
39: Was any one present at the time that Joseph Smith taught the principle of plural marriage that you refer to?
40: Who was present at the time he taught that principle.
My wife’s sister.
41: Who was that?
42: Was there any others?
Yes sir, there was some of my own family there, but they were young at that time.
43: Were you ever present when any one was married under this plural marriage doctrine, as taught by Joseph Smith?
44: Well state the circumstances?
Please read that. By the Examiner, –
45: Mr. Hall asked you to state the circumstances under which you were present ans saw any one married under the operations of this plural marriage doctrine or principle, as I understand it?
It bothers me to call up these things, – (In the giving of his testimony this witness hesitates a great deal and give evidence of being ill.) (continued) I feel so feeble. Well I was present one time and performed the marriage ceremony giving him my wife’s sister.
46: Who did you marry?
Louisa Beeman to the prophet.
47: You married Louisa Beeman to the prophet Joseph Smith?
48: You married Louisa Beeman to the prophet Joseph Smith?
49: About what year was this?
In 1841 or close to it. Now that is my best recollection.
50: When did the prophet Joseph Smith first teach you that doctrine?
He taught me that doctrine in ’40. It was in ’40 or about that time, – that is my best recollection.
51: Where were you living when you were first taught that doctrine?
I was living in Montrose in Lee County, Iowa, right across the river opposite Nauvoo.
52: Do you know whether Joseph Smith ever lived any with Louisa Beeman as his wife?
53: You may state how you know it.
I know it for I saw him in bed with her.
54: Well that is all, – you may take the witness? Cross examination by P.P. Kelley, –
55: You say your name is Joseph Bates Noble?
56: Where were you born Mr. Noble?
I was born in Massachusetts, in Berkshire County.
57: When did you first join the church?
It was in ’32.
Where did I join it?
59: In what place in Ohio?
It was in Kirtland.
60: In what place in Ohio?
It was in Kirtland.
61: Who baptized you?
62: Who was present at the time you were baptized, besides you and he?
Well there was a number present I couldn’t tell you their names now.
63: Can you name any, – can you name any that were present?
I don’t know that I can.
64: Was it at a conference?
Joseph Smith went into the water, –
65: Well now answer my questions please. Who was present besides you and he, for I don’t care whether he went into the water or whether you did, or whether you went on top of it, all I want is for you to answer the questions I propound to you?
There was a number present but I can’t tell their names.
66: Can you tell airy one of them?
I can’t say.
67: Was your wife there?
68: Was your daughter there?
69: And your wife’s sister?
70: What was her age?
My daughter was, – I believe she told me that she was nine years old at the time.
71: Well what do you say about her age?
72: Yes sir, about that and nothing else?
Well that was it.
73: Was your wife’s sister married then?
I don’t know that is a pretty hard thing to tell, –
74: Well was she baptized then?
Yes sir, it was a general time for baptizing.
75: You all were baptized then?
pretty near all were.
76: All that were there?
Yes sir, he stood in the water and baptized them.
77: He baptized the whole crowd?
He baptized a good many.
78: Well he baptized the whole crowd didn’t he?
Well I can’t say that he did.
79: Did you nor just say that he did?
Well I don’t know that he did, – there might have been some that he did not.
80: Well he baptized over one hundred that day didn’t he?
Well I don’t know that it was as many as that.
81: Well fifty was it?
82: Was that sister of your wife’s you referred to Louisa Beeman then? What is that? What do you say to that? (Witness hesitates a great deal in answering nearly every question that is asked him)
I don’t know whether she was then or was not.
83: Well she was baptized there that day wasn’t she?
I could not say whether she was or not.
84: Well was she there at all?
Yes sir, she was there.
85: Well do you know that she was there?
Yes sir, I am confident she was there.
86: How old was she?
I can’t tell.
87: She was about seven years old was not she?
88: Yes sir, – what do you think about her age?
It is pretty hard to remember people’s ages in that way. I knw it is hard with me now to do it.
89: Well where did you go from Kirtland?
Well in the exodus we came westward.
90: In what year?
Oh did you say from Kirtland?
91: Yes sir, from Kirtland where did you go and in that year was it?
Well we left there for Missouri.
92: You left Kirtland for Missouri, did you say?
Yes sir. We went to Missouri.
93: You did?
94: That is one of the things you are sure of?
95: Well what year was that in, that you left Kirtland for Missouri?
What year was it that we left Kirtland and came to Missouri?
96: Yes sir?
Well it was in ’32 I think.
97: How long did you live in Kirtland?
Three or four years.
98: You lived in Kirtland three or four years?
99: What did you do there at Kirtland?
I was attending a mill there for Willoughby, –
100: Did you raise any money there for the church?
What to do?
101: To purchase lands for the church?
102: Answer the question?
What is the question?
103: Did you raise any moneys there to purchase lands for the church in Missouri?
No sir, not as I know of.
104: Did the church raise any funds there to purchase lands for the church in Missouri?
I can’t tell you.
105: You do not know anything about that? Do you say that you do not know anything about it?
Well I don’t. I can’t particularize things. There may have been money sent out to Missouri for all I know, but I don’t particularize these things now.
106: Don’t you know that there was money contributed by those members of the church there at Kirtland for the purpose of raising a fund to be sent out to Missouri to purchase lands for the church?
What is the question?
107: Don’t you know that there was money contributed by the members of the church where you were living at Kirtland for the purpose of purchasing lands in Missouri for the church?
I don’t know about these things. I have heard sounds you know but I can’t put them in shape.
108: You heard sounds there at that time did you?
I have heard these things that I can’t call up up now. I can’t put it in shape.
109: You did not pay anything for that purpose did you?
No sir I believe not.
110: Well do you know whether you did or not?
I can’t tell you sir.
111: You do not know a member of this church here in Salt Lake City, or in Utah Territory that did, do you?
112: Answer the question?
I don’t know now. My head is in such a poor condition that I will be “dogged” if I can remember. I don’t know anything it seems.
113: You don’t know anything this morning you say?
I don’t know a great deal, that is sure, – whether this morning or any other.
114: You don’t know much this morning. Is that what you say?
This morning? I don’t know much and never did.
115: You don’t know much this morning only about polygamy and Joseph Smith’s connection with it, and you know all about that?
Well that forces it upon me more particularly.
116: Is it because you have been connected with that crime, – with the commission of that crime yourself?
Yes sir, I expect so.
117: You know all about polygamy?
I expect I do.
118: And your conscience is gnawing you?
Yes sir. It has a terrible gnawing fit on it this morning.
119: You feel very bad over it, don’t you?
120: Is it not a fact that you feel very bad over your sins in connection with polygamy?
Not much, thank you.
121: Well you went to Jackson County, Missouri, didn’t you, from Kirtland?
122: You did not?
123: Well you went to Far West didn’t you?
124: What time did you go there?
I don’t know as I can tell the time.
125: Well was it in ’37?
I am under the impression that it was in ’38.
126: You think it was in 1838 you went to Far West?
127: Did you attend a conference in Far West in 1838?
Let me see whether I did or not. I believe not. I think not. I think I did not make much of a stay there.
128: You did not make much of a stay there?
No sir, for I think it was almost the time of our exodus that I went up there, and had to go away in a short time, so we didn’t get much of a chance to stay there.
129: Were you not an officer at the church at that time?
How is that?
130: I asked you if you were an officer in the church at that time? (witness does not answer) Well go on and answer the question, for the judgment day is coming, and it soon may be here?
Well I guess so.
131: And I want to get through by that time?
So do I.
132: Let the record show Mr. Reporter that the witness takes from five to ten minutes to answer a question.
I made but a very short stop there.
At Far West.
134: I did not ask you anything about that. I asked you if you were an officer in the church at the time you came to Missouri. Now you know whether you were or not and it should not take you ten or 15 minutes to answer the question either? (after waiting several minutes, the witness not having answered, counsel says) Were you an elder or priest or deacon, or what were you?
Wait a little. I am trying to call it up, for I can hardly tell.
135: Were you anything at all?
It was hardly anything I guess.
136: Let the record show that this witness says he was hardly anything. Then you say in 1838 you were not an officer in the church do you?
In 1838, – let me see.
138: Are you not hard of hearing Mr. Noble?
Yes sir, I am tolerably hard of hearing now.
139: You say you are hard of hearing “now”, – now you mean that that is not your normal condition?
No sir, I can’t hear very well now. I can’t hear as well as I once could. I am just about half sick, and that is the honest fact about it. You had better adjourn this and let me go until another time.
140: We will finish the cross examination now? You won’t get any sicker on account of your crimes, – ?
141: Do you recollect whether or not you were an officer in the church in 1838?
I have forgotten about all that I ever did know, actually, with regard to dates.
142: What time did you leave Far West, Missouri.
Well my recollection is that we left there in ’39 didn’t we?
143: Well you are the witness?
Well it is my recollection that we came out of there in ’39. I think that is when we came out of there.
144: Who came out with you?
What is that?
145: Who came out with you?
Well that is something I am trying to call up.
146: Well if you can’t recollect the names of anybody that came out with you, I will ask you what time you arrived at the Mississipi on your way out?
Well now it is considerable trouble to tell these days.
147: Well I want to know these things I am asking you or I would not ask you. Do you recollect the time that you arrived at that Mississipi River on your way from Far West?
I can’t remember.
148: Well seeing you cannot recollect the other things, – I will ask you what place you stopped at in the state of Illinois?
What is that?
149: What place did you stop at in the state of Illinois when you first came out of Missouri, – after leaving Far West?
We stopped at Nauvoo.
150: That was the first place you topped at?
Yes sir it was called Commerce then.
151: You did not stop at any place after you came out of Missouri until you got to Commerce, which was afterwards called Nauvoo?
No sir, – yes we did too, – we stopped at Quincy a little while.
152: How long did you stay at Quincy?
I drove the team that came out when I did, and took Hyrum Smith up to Commerce.
153: Hyrum Smith came out of Missouri with you?
Yes sir, he came out with the crowd.
154: He came out with the outfit that came out of Missouri?
Yes sir, with the crowd I guess.
155: Joseph Smith went out with the crowd too?
156: And you are sure about that, are you?
Hold on, – hold on and let me see. Wasn’t he in jail then?
157: Well I don’t know anything about it, and that is the reason I am asking you about it? You said that Hyrum and Joseph Smith came out with the crowd?
Well I recollect moving Hyrum up to Commerce, but I suppose Joseph was in jail about this time.
158: Well what do you say about Hyrum being in jail too.
I can’t say.
159: Now don’t you know that neither of them were with you when you left Missouri?
I do know, but George.
160: By whom?
Oh don’t take me up too quick, – I said I did know by George, – that is an expression of mine, – yes they were in jail. I remember that now.
161: They were in jail?
Yes sir, but I remember after they got out Hyrum came to Quincy, and I remember taking him down to Commerce with my team.
162: Are you an elder in the church now?
163: And in good standing?
Well I don’t know hardly. I could hardly tell.
164: Well what is your best recollection now about Joseph and Hyrum coming out of Missouri with you?
165: Don’t you know that they did not come, – neither of them?
That is what I said, – I remember that they were in jail.
166: You remember that they were in jail at the time?
Yes sir. I believe so. I did not see them there, but I believe they were.
167: After you left Missouri you went over to Illinois and stopped at Quincy a month or two did you not?
Yes sir, we stopped there, but I don’t think it was that long.
168: What is that?
I say I guess it was not so long as that?
169: Well then you went down to Commerce that was after wards called Nauvoo?
170: Well now you lived in Lee County across the river from Nauvoo for a while, and did not go over to Nauvoo for a while, and did not go over to Nauvoo to live right away?
171: First I will ask you what was the law of the church on marriage at that time?
172: Up to the time you got to Quincy?
The law of the church?
173: Yes sir, the law of the church, – was it polygamy, – answer the question?
My head is so bad, – I can’t think of anything.
174: Well you married people before that didn’t you?
Before that? What is that?
175: You married people before that time did you not? As an elder in the church you had married people before that hadn’t you? You had performed the marriage ceremony before that time, hadn’t you, by virtue of your being an elder in the church?
Not at the time that we came out, – not at that time, for I landed in Iowa.
176: What was the law of the church on marriage when you were at Quincy, Illinois?
I can’t tell you.
177: Do you say that you cannot tell me?
I can’t tell you. My head is so bad, –
178: Was there any law at all?
I guess not, – I can’t tell what it was it has been so long ago, and my head hurts so.
179: Don’t you know there was a law?
I can’t tell you.
180: If there was any you don’t know anything about it, – Is that what you mean to tell me? By the Examiner, –
181: Mr Noble do you feel too ill to go on with this examination?
183: When you were excused the other day by the examiner, you promised that you would return the next morning, and you failed to do so. What excuse have you to offer for your failure to appear when you promised?
Well, I understood that I was excused to appear when I was called on, and as soon as I know I was wanted here, I came.
184: That is the reason you give for not being here yesterday?
Yes sir, and I hope it is a good one.
185: Mr. Noble, when did you say you became a member of this church?
It was in ’32.
I have told you all about that before.
187: No, you did not tell me. You told that gentlemen there (Mr. Hall), but you did not tell me.
Do you want to know where it ws I joined the church?
188: Yes, sir.
Well, it was in Ohio.
189: Was it in Kirtland?
Yes sir, Kirtland, Ohio.
190: Who baptized you?
Well now, I will after that a little. It was not in Kirtland either, for it was twoo hundred miles east of that in northern New York. In the northern part of the state of New York, near that Hill Cumora when I lived there.
191: Who baptized you?
192: In 1832?
193: When did you first go to Kirtland?
It was in ’33, and I went there to see the Prophet.
194: How long did you stay?
I stayed nine days, for he was cutting up hay in the field, and I worked with him during that time helping him cut his hay.
195: Well, I don’t care anything about the hay.
Well, that is what I was doing.
196: Was the church at that time raising money to buy land in Missouri?
197: Were they raising money at that time for that purpose?
I can’t tell you with regard to the date. There was some money raised for that purpose, but I don’t know that it was quite as early as that.
198: You say there was some money raised for the purpose of buying land in Missouri?
I think so.
199: Who was it sent to buy the land? Who was the bishop of the church at the time?
200: Was it Bishop Partridge? Counsel objects to the question on the ground that it is leading, and also on the ground that the witness has stated that he was not thoroughly certain as to who it was.
201: You go on and answer my question and pay no attention to him–was it not Bishop Partridge?
I don’t know.
202: Don’t you know who the first bishop of the church was?
I know who the first bishop of the church was.
203: Who was it?
204: Well why couldn’t you say so that save all this trouble?
I understand that sir, but you did not ask me that, – you asked me who the bishop of the church was that this money was sent to, and I said I didn’t know, but when you asked who the first bishop of the church was I told you, for I knew that all the time.
205: He was the first bishop of the church?
206: And he was the man to whom that money was sent?
Well now when it comes down to that I can’t say, for I know that I don’t know who that money was sent to, – I really don’t know whether he handled that money or not.
207: Don’t you know that he was the bishop of the church, – that Partridge was the bishop of the church in ’33?
He was the bishop, – the first bishop of the church, – I know that.
208: He was the bishop in Missouri wasn’t he?
I think he was the first bishop there in Missouri as well.
209: Where do you mean by “there”?
210: Do you mean that Partridge was the first bishop in Missouri?
I think so, I think he was.
211: Well now he was the bishop of the church in Missouri and elsewhere when they were raising money – in the church to buy land in Missouri, wasn’t he?
There were other men that had to do with it as well as the bishop.
212: Well name us the other ones?
Well N.K. Whitney was a prominent man.
213: Who was the other?
Partridge was the other.
214: Who was another?
I could not tell you.
215: You don’t know who was another?
216: Was not William Marks another prominent man in the church?
217: Was not William Marks a prominent man in the church at that time?
Yes sir, William Marks was a prominent man in the church then, but I do not know that he was engaged in the work, – in the affair you speak of.
218: He was a moneyed man too wasn’t he?
Well guess he had a little change in his pocket.
219: Did he not have the deed to the temple lot of Kirtland to secure himself for money advanced to the church, – didn’t Marks have that deed?
I don’t know.
220: You don’t know anything about that?
221: Well now Partridge was a bishop, and Whitney was a bishop in the same time, – in ’33 wasn’t he?
Well I think it was close on that time, – not far from it that Whitney was made a bishop.
222: They were the bishops when they were raising the money to buy land in Missouri, were they not?
With regard to the raising of that money it may be one side of that date or the other. I can’t say to the time that that was done, for it may be a little before that date or a little after it. I can’t tell you when it was for I don’t know much about that of my own knowledge, although there was some money raised I think.
223: Well I don’t care a straw whether it was in ’31, ’32, or ’33, but there was money raised at one time to purchase land in Missouri for the church?
As I said before, I heard sounds of it but I did not see it.
224: You heard that the money was raised and sent to Missouri?
225: And you heard afterwards that there was lands bought, didn’t you?
Yes sir, I heard there was land bought.
226: And you knew it was set apart and dedicated for the temple did you not?
In Jackson County?
227: Yes sir, in Jackson County, Missouri.
No sir, I did not.
228: In Jackson County, Missouri, at Independence?
No sir, I did not because I did not stand by and see it done. What I know about it is what I heard about it, but I did not stand by and see it done, so I don’t know it.
229: You don’t know anything only what you stand by and see done, -is that it?
Well now now, I have lost about all there was in my noggin, and there ain’t but little left in it.
230: Well you heard the reports in the church about it?
Yes sir, I heard about it.
231: And you heard that it had been bought and dedicated to the church?
232: You heard Bishop Partridge talk about it didn’t you?
233: You heard it talked and preached or proclaimed from the pulpit in the church did you not?
I heard some talk about it, but how deep and how far, and to what extent or length it went I do not know. I don’t know that because I did not have anything to do with it.
235: You never were there at all?
No sir, never in my life.
236: Were you ever in Jackson County?
Jackson County, Missouri?
237: Yes sir.
No sir, I never was in the county, but when I was up through that section of country I was close enough to see it. I went up on the hills along the river over in Clay County and looked over and saw it.
238: You have seen Jackson County then?
Yes sir. I saw it from an elevation in Clay County.
239: You were in “Zion’s Camp” in Clay County, were you not?
Yes sir, I was with “Zion’s Scamps.”
240: Was that what they were called?
Yes sir, they were nicknamed that name.
241: Then you were with “Zion’s Scamps”?
Yes sir that is what they said.
242: I did not call them that name, then why do you call them that? Do you think it is sharp and witty to term them that?
Well they were pretty good fellows, – still they were boys then and were full of fun. Perhaps I had better take it back.
243: Well now do you say there was any scamps about it?
Well I expect that there was some of them were scamps.
244: Well when I call your attention to “Zion’s Camp” do you call the occupants or the people that were there “Zion’s Scamps”?
No sir, I just said that because that was the name we went by amongst some people, but I don’t think we deserved it at all. They were boys, a good many of them, and it was put that way just for fun.
245: Who put it that way in the first place?
Brigham Young, and he did it just for fun I guess.
246: You heard him say that, did you?
247: Did you hear Brigham Young say that?
Yes sir, I heard it.
248: You never heard Brigham Young say anything about the temple lot, though did you?
249: You say you did not hear him say anything about it.
That I do not recollect of.
250: You remember though what he said about “Zion’s Scamps”, but you can’t recollect if he ever said any thing about the temple lot.
Well I remember these nonsensical things, and I don’t recollect these other things at all.
251: Well did you not hear Brigham say something about the temple lot?
I don’t knot that I did.
252: Now had the church been driven off its lands here or there in Jackson County, Missouri, at Independence at the time that Zion’s Camp was established in Clay County?
253: It had?
254: How far was Zion’s camp from Independence?
255: Yes sir, if you know?
Well for all that I knew it might have been a good many thousand miles I was going to say.
256: You were in Clay County?
Yes sir, we were in there.
257: Zion’s Camp was in Clay County?
Zion’s Camp covered a good deal of land, – it was from Ohio, – well it was everywhere at that time we thought.
258: Then you mean to say that Zion’s Camp extended from Kirtland Ohio, to Clay County, Missouri?
I mean no such thing. The way it was we went up with the prophet to that place in Clay County and it was called Zion’s Camp.
259: And you located there in Clay County?
260: Well how far was that place from Independence Missouri?
I told you I could not tell you the exact distance, but by getting on an eminence that was there, you could look over into Jackson County or what they told me was Jackson County, and so it could not have been so very far.
261: It was just a few miles they told you?
Yes sir the Missouri river separated them, -that was all they said.
262: And that was all that did separate them?
Yes sir, that was all that I knew anything about.
263: Just the distance across the Missouri river?
Yes sir, I suppose so.
264: Why did you not go over into Jackson County and settle on those lands there?
I don’t know.
265: Why did you not go over into Jackson County, and settle on the lands there when you were so near them, -when there was only the river between you and them?
Well that was not our object in getting up there. We were just a traveling camp.
266: Was it not because the church had just been driven off its lands there, and the members of the church, and you were not permitted to go over there?
Yes sir, I think so.
267: Well don’t you know that was the reason?
I guess that covers it.
268: That is the fact bout it?
I think it is close to it anyway. They were driven off their land and we went up there to see if they could be re-instated, for they were mobbed out of the county I understood. There was a good many of the pole who had been driven out and they told me about it man a time.
269: And the reason you did not go back to Jackson County was because you did not consider it safe for you to go, -is that not it?
Well that has something to do with it.
270: What year was it you went into Clay County?
271: You went into Clay County in 1834?
272: How long did you stay in Clay County?
Long enough to have the cholera, and some of us died and were buried there.
273: Well you could have that in a few days and die, but how long did it take you to have it?
It took us between twenty and thirty hours to dig through the worst of it.
274: Well was that as long as you stayed in Clay County?
Well I guess it was a little longer, -a few days longer.
275: Well about how long were you there? Did you leave there in ’34 or did you leave in ’35?
276: In what month?
Now let me wee, “dogged’ if I can tell you what month it was. That was a great many ears ago, -nearly sixty years ago, and it is hard for me to remember all these things. I know I had the cholera there nigh unto death, but through the grace of God, assisted by the prophet, I recovered and regained my usual good health, but i ow that I assisted in burying four out of the company of us that were there, before I left.
277: Well I am not asking you about that, – I am asking you about the time that you left there?
Well I thought you wanted to know all that we were up to there.
278: Well I don’t are about that?
There is no harm in telling you anyway.
279: Well then when you left Clay County you went over into Caldwell County, to Far West?
No sir, not then.
280: Well you did afterwards?
282: Years afterwards, – do you say it was years afterwards before you went to Caldwell County, – after you were in Clay County?
No I did not understand the question. We did not go there right away, for I had to go back and get my woman and move her there with the family.
283: What time was it that you were in Clay County, did you say?
It was in ’34.
284: And when did you move your family to Caldwell County?
Well that would be four years afterwards after all for it was in ’38 that I moved to Caldwell County.
285: Where were you married?
Well I went back to my own place where I was raised and married my wife there.
286: Where was that?
In New York State.
287: Then you were mattied in New York State?
288: Who married you?
Who married me?
289: Yes ri?
Well it was Presbyterian preacher, – I forget his name, but he was a preacher, and he married me all right and tight beyond a question.
290: Then you went out to Far West, Missouri in 1838?
291: And took your family with you?
292: Then when did you get there?
293: To Far West?
294: In what month I mean?
I forget the month.
295: Well was it in the fore part of the year, or the latter part?
Well you lawyers are queer people, – it is hard to beat you. What is the use of your asking me so many fool questions?
296: I asked you that question sir because I wanted to know whether it was in the fore part of the year or the latter part of the year that you arrived there, and I did that simply because I conceived that it might be of importance to the side of the case I represent to be possessed of the information?
I can’t remember.
297: Well according to the best of your recollection what time in the year was it?
I don’t remember the date, for dates are always a trouble to me.
298: Just state your best recollection, for that is all we are asking for?
Well that is what I will try and do the best I can.
299: Well now was it in the fore part of ’38 or the last part of ’38? What is the best recollection as to that?
It was in the fore part.
300: Well how many months, – or about how long did you stay there?
In the latter part of ’38 I left. I was kicked out, – I left any way and was kicked out, pitched out, knocked out, – at any rate I got out some way – and I could never tell very well how it was that I did get out, but I know it was in a hurry.
301: Was that the way that all the church went out, – was kicked out?
302: Were they permitted to go back into Jackson County from Far West?
303: Is it not a fact that they were driven from the state of Missouri then?
304: Absolutely driven from the state?
305: Were they not ordered to leave the state and ordered never to return?
I believe so.
306: They were driven from the state of Missouri as they had been driven out of Jackson County?
Yes sir, and they were finally driven out of the state of Illinois the same way.
307: Were they not driven out of Missouri upon the order of the Governor?
Yes sir I think so.
308: And you said, I believe, that you went from Far West to Quincy?
309: Now when you were married was there any other minister present except the Presbyterian minister who married you?
There was no other minister or preacher, he was sufficient.
310: Was that according to the law of the church?
311: That marriage, was that according to the law of the church?
That was out of the church, that was. I stopped over into the boundary and took a wife that was out of the church, not in it.
312: You married a woman then that was out of the church?
Yes sir, and all her family was out of the church, but I got them all in.
313: You got all your wife’s family into the church?
314: Including your wife?
315: Was it according to the laws of the church then that any minister could perform the ceremony?
Well I was only on the threshold of the church at that time.
316: Answer the question?
What is the question?
317: Was it according to the laws of the church at that time that any minister could perform the marriage ceremony?
I can’t say. There was no law upon it at that time that I know anything of.
318: Was there not a revelation on that particular subject?
Oh, well, there was afterwards. We got that afterwards I guess.
319: Was there not a revelation on that particular subject at that time?
I think there wasn’t then, I think we got that afterwards.
320: Is there not a section in the book of Doctrine and Covenants relating specifically to marriage, and stipulating how it may be performed, and who are competent to wed?
Yes sir, there was afterwards, but there was not at that time, for it was not published then.
321: Was it not published in 1838?
I can’t tell you, but I know it was not published at that early time that I had that wedding I spoke of.
322: You had that wedding in 1838?
323: And do you say the book of Doctrine and Covenants was not published in 1838?
Let me see the book, tell me the date when it was published.
324: Hold on, do you say it was not published in 1838?
No sir. I don’t say it was not published, it might have been.
325: Well now as a matter of fact was it not published in 1835?
326: Answer the question.
Please put the question again.
327: Was not the book of doctrine and covenants first published in 1835?
I could not say.
328: Do you say it was not first published then?
329: You have read it haven’t you?
Yes sir, I presume I have. I have read a good many things, but I can’t remember all of them or hardly any of the, and the fact is I have lost my memory of these things.
330: Look at that book (handing witness eth 1835 edition of the book of doctrine and covenants marked “Exhibit E.”) and tell me what that is?
I can’t read that.
331: Well you can read the title page, – is that the book of doctrine and covenants (the book handed the witness is one of the edition of 1835 in all respects the same as the one marked exhibit “E” with the exception of the title page which is in the book handed witness but which is missing in exhibit “E”).
I guess so.
332: What is the date of that book? What is the date of its publication, – you will see it down at the bottom of the book, – the page?
What is that, – is it ’35? I think it is ’35, – by ginger, it is as much as I can do it see it, but I think it is ’35.
333: Yes sir it is “1835” and that is the date of its publication?
Yes sir I guess that is right, but I would have to put on my glasses to get it right.
334: It is 1835 is it not, – I would like to have you be definite on that point?
Yes sir, it looks like it. I have no doubt but that is what it is.
335: You were married after that were you not?
336: You were married in 1838?
I was. The covenants were in manuscript when I went up there in 1838 I thought, but it looks there like as if it had been published in 1835, – I can’t understand that.
337: You saw the manuscript in the hands of the prophet in 1838 do you say?
Well let me see now. No, no, I was mistaken about that, for by golly it was in ’34 when I first went up there, – I am getting terribly astray for I went up there to Kirtland and saw the prophet in ’33. Is that not right? Is it not so written?
338: Yes sir, I think that is the way it is written?
Yes sir, that is right and that is the time he showed me the manuscript. This was printed in ’35, yes that is right, for it was in ’34 that I saw the manuscript. Well now is that not strange for I had it in my noggin that it was in ’38, – well, well, – a man is twice a child, – it is astonishing, for once when I was in my prime I could throw down the best of you that are here, and now I am like a child again, – it is astonishing.
339: Well that is not responsive to the question Mr. Nobel.
Well I am an old man and I am just bragging a little, as an old man has a right to do you know.
340: Well it was not proper for any minister whether he belonged to the church you belonged to to perfom the ceremony, or any justice of the peace or minister under the laws of the state where the marriage occurred?
Well – there was lots of handwriting, –
341: Answer the question, – it was according to the law of doctrine and covenants that ny minister could marry you and perform the marriage ceremony?
Yes sir, of course it was.
342: You could get any one to do that?
Yes sir, you could call on whom you liked.
343: That was the doctrine of the church wasn’t it?
344: It was not?
345: Well what was it?
There was no doctrine about it, – it was simply the practice. We were not after doctrine at such a time as that.
346: You were after the women weren’t you?
Yes sir, we were after women and we got them too, and that is more than some men can do now a days. I was after a wife and I know I got here.
347: You got your first wife in 1838?
348: You commenced hunting a wife in 1838 now when did you quit hunting them?
349: Yes sir, – that is what I asked you?
I don’t know as I have quit yet.
350: Now is the doctrine of the church here that any minister can perform the marriage ceremony for you?
351: Is it?
Is it what?
351: Is it the doctrine and practice of your church here that any minister can perform the marriage ceremony for you?
I don’t know that we are tied down particularly.
352: You don’t know as you are tied down?
No sir, and never were that I know of.
353: You never knew that that was the rule here?
No sir, I don’t know that there is any such a rule in force here.
354: Did you ever know of a minister in Utah Territory, that is, a minister of any of the evangelical denominations, performing the marriage ceremony for any partied that belonged to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, as you term it, as it is organized out here in this territory?
I don’t know that, – I don’t know anything about that, – that is, it has not been under my observation.
355: You never saw any minister perform the marriage ceremony for parties that belonged to what is called the Latter Day Saints church?
Yes sir I did.
356: Give us an instance?
It was so with me.
357: Well here in Utah Territory I mean?
358: Yes sir?
I don’t know about that.
359: Well did you ever see a Methodist minister perform the marriage ceremony for a Latter Day Saint here?
360: You have not seen that done?
361: Nor have you seen the marriage ceremony performed here in Utah territory between parties that belong to the church here, by any other minister, excepting Latter Day Saints ministers as you call them?
It depends on how much faith we have.
362: Well now has it not been the teaching of the church here, and the counsel of the church, that all marriages not performed by ministers of your own church were irregular, – that is, that all marriages not performed by your own priesthood are irregular?
What is it? Put the question again please?
363: I asked you if it had not been the teaching of the priesthood here and the counsel of the church, that all marriages not performed by the ministers of your own church were irrehilar, – that is, that all marriages not performed by your own priesthood are irregular. Has that not been the teaching of the priesthood here and the counsel of the church, that all marriages not performed by your own priesthood were irregular?
I don’t know.
364: Do you say that you don’t know anything about it, – you an officer on the church, and don’t know about that?
I don’t know anything about it at all.
365: Now you were at Quincy, Illinois at one time, – for a period of time I believe you stated, in 1838?
366: After you were drive from Far West you went to Quincy?
Yes sir, I think so. I think it was in ’38. It was after we left Far West.
367: Well how long did you stay at Quincy Illinois?
Well I can’t say. It was but a very short time.
368: Then where did you go?
After I left Quincy?
369: Yes sir?
I went up to Commerce as it was called then, but it was afterwards known as Nauvoo.
370: Commerce was in Illinois?
371: Then how long did you stay there?
We stayed there but a little time before we crossed the river into Iowa.
372: What place did you go to in Iowa?
373: What year did you get to Montrose?
It was the first year that we went up there.
374: That was in 1838 I believe you stated.
I guess so.
375: Well are you pretty positive of that, – I am asking you for your best recollection now?
I think that was the year. That is my best recollection of the time.
376: Well that was in ’38 was it?
I think so. Well now I think it was in ’39 or pretty near in ’39 when we got in there. We were rumbling about for quire a while one place or another looking for a place, stubbing our toes against things.
377: Well was it in ’39 or ’38 that you settled there in Iowa, – I would like for you to come as near it as you can?
Well I think now it was in ’39. I know I was there about that time but I can’t tell exactly when it was.
378: Well when were you ever in Nauvoo, – where was Nauvoo from where you lived in Iowa?
Well it was just across the river. It was not very far away for you could go over to Nauvoo in the morning and get back before breakfast if you want to.
379: Well did you ever live in Nauvoo?
380: Well when did you go to Nauvoo to live?
Well it is my best recollection that we went there about 1841.
381: That is when you first heard the doctrine of polygamy talked, – when you went over to Nauvoo to live in 1841 was the time when you first heard that doctrine talked was it not?
Well I don’t know about that.
382: Do you mean to say that you do not know about that?
I don’t know when I first heard of it.
383: Well was it not that time?
I could not tell you the time when I heard it first, for I have heard so much about it first and last that I really couldn’t say when I first heard of it.
384: You don’t know whether it was before that or not?
I can’t say.
384: Well it was some time in 1841 wasn’t it that you first heard it talked of, when you went oevr to Nauvoo to live?
Yes sir, I heard of it when I guess, but I had heard of it before that time, and afterwards too I guess.
384: Well where and when did you hear of it before?
I heard of it in ’40 I guess.
386: In 1840 you say you heard of it?
387: Where did you hear of it then?
Let me see where I was then, – I was over there in Montrose I guess.
388: You were in Montrose?
389: How long did you remain there after you heard it?
In Montrose do you mean?
390: Yes sir?
Let me see, – I remained there I guess, – Well I don’t now exactly how long it was.
391: Well now you are positive are you that you heard of it in 1840 when you lived in Montrose?
My best recollection is that it was about that time, but I heard more of it afterwards.
392: Now did you hear anything about the church denouncing such a practice at any time between 1840 and 1844, – at any time between these dates?
I don’t recollect much about that.
393: Well do you recollect anything about it?
Not the date, – of course there was rumors and talks, – I could not begin to say or tell all that I heard for there was so much talk going on there.
394: Don’t you know that the church as a church did denounce it between 1840 and 1844?
395: Answer the question, – don’t you know that too?
How is that? Know what?
396: I asked if you did not know that the church did denounce the practice of polygamy or the plural or secret wife system between 1840 and 1844? Answer the question? Are you going to answer the question?
Be patient. I am trying to call up these things. It was in 1844 that the prophet died. That was the time of the death of the prophet I believe. My head feels so bad and I feel bad all over too.
397: It feels worse than it did when you was being examined by Hall, don’t it?
Well I don’t know.
398: Don’t you know that the church did denounce it and publish it, and by resolution it was put in the book of doctrine and covenants. Don’t you know that?
The dates is what bothers me you see. I can’t remember dates at all any more.
399: Well you know it was denounced by the church at some time, don’t you?
400: The church did denounce the system of polygamy or its practice did it not as some time, and that too before the death of Joseph Smith?
The trouble with me is that I can’t date it.
401: You can’t think of it?
I can’t satisfy myself on that point as to the date.
402: Well I am not asking you anything on that date, I am not asking you anything on the question of date, I asked you if the church did not officially denounce the practice of polygamy and the doctrine at some time, before Joseph Smith was killed or died, without reference to any particular date?
Well that is the point I can’t satisfy myself on.
403: Now to refresh your recollection I will read a paragraph here. It is the fourth paragraph of section on hundred and one on marriage, in Exhibit “E” on page two hundred and fifty one in this same book of covenants that you were looking at and identified, “All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church shall be held sacred and fulfilled” Did you ever hear that before?
Yes sir, and behind too.
404: Who red it to you behind?
Well you know what I mean. I have heard the sound of it before.
405: I will go on and read the balance of the paragraph “Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have but one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.” Was that not the doctrine of the church in 1840?
Well I don’t know. I can’t give the dates for that is what bothers me now.
406: I mean this was the doctrine of the church?
407: What is contained in this book here that I have been reading out of? That contained the doctrine of the church up to the time of Joseph Smith’s death did it not?
408: Answer the question?
Well I said I don’t know.
409: You don’t know you say, and yet you were an elder in the church and an high priest?
I was an elder I guess, but I don’t know about the high priest part of it.
410: Well were you not also an high priest?
It is like enough.
411: And a bishop?
Yes sir, and a bishop.
412: In the fifth war in Nauvoo?
Yes sir. I see you have got it right.
413: Well now do you say this was not the law of the church at the time that Joseph Smith died?
414: Well I will modify that question, – do you say this was not the law of the church at the time that Joseph Smith died?
Yes sir, I don’t know anything about it.
415: Then you say you did not know this was the law of the church at the time that Joseph Smith died, when you were a bishop, and a high priest and elder, and sat there to teach the people what the law of the church was?
I was not much of a scholar, and I guess I did not go to the book.
416: Then you did not teach the law of the church out of the book?
I guess not.
417: Why not?
I guess I had enough without.
418: You had enough to teach without going to the book for your law, – you knew enough without that?
Yes sir, I suppose so.
419: Well what did you teach, – this law or some other law?
I taught every man to mind his own business devisish close.
420: That is what you taught every man?
Yes sir, and that was good teaching too I think.
421: You say you taught every man to mind his business devilish close?
422: You are an elder in the church now?
I am I guess.
423: And you use language like that, – an elder in the church here can use language like that?
Sometimes there is occasion to use it I think.
424: Did you teach publicly or privately there at Nauvoo that a man could have more wives than one?
I did not.
425: You did not teach that either publicly or privately
No sir, I did not teach anything of the kind.
426: Why not?
Because as I said it was not taught publicly, – it was a private matter.
427: Then you did not teach it?
No sir, I guess not, – not much I did not teach it. I don’t think I did but I can’t remember. My head hurts me when I try to think of these things that I can’t remember.
428: When I ask you these questions it makes your head hurt?
429: It did not make your head hurt a little bit when Hall asked you these questions?
It did some.
430: It made it hurt some, but not as bad as when I ask
you the same question:
You ask so many foolish nonsensical questions that it would make anybody’s head hurt to answer them I think.
431: You said that you did not teach that?
I think not.
432: Well you recollect whether you did or not, don’t you?
433: Well then answer the question as to whether you taught that a man could have more wives than one?
No sir, I don’t think I did teach that.
434: Well if that was the doctrine and practice of the church, why didn’t you teach it?
Well I guess it wasn’t safe for a man to do so, and you had to be careful as to what you taught.
435: Did you hear Joseph Smith teach the church, during his lifetime either publicly or privately that a man could have more than one wife? Did you hear him teach that?
What is the question?
436: Did you hear Joseph Smith teach the church either publicly or privately at any time, that a man could have more wives than one?
I heard him, –
437: Answer the question yes or no, – did you hear Joseph Smith at any time or place prior to his death of course, teach the church either publicly or privately that a man could have more wives than one? Now answer that question fair and square?
Yes sir — the principle.
438: Answer that question?
I have answered it.
439: No you have not, and I insist upon an answer, and ask that the Examiner compel this witness to answer these questions fairly and to the point. He know how to answer them, and I insist that he be made to do so. By the Examiner, –
440: Mr Kelley has asked you if at any time or place during Joseph Smith’s life time you ever heard him teach the doctrine that a man could have more wives than one? Now that is a simple question and can be answered either affirmatively or negatively?
The principle was taught, – there is no doubt of that.
441: Will you answer the question I put to you?
How is that?
442: Did you hear Joseph Smith teach the principle, publicly or privately, – that is, teach the church I mean, – the principle of plural marriage, and that a man could have more wives than one?
I guess it was privately.
443: Well did you hear him teach the church that principle, either publicly or privately?
The date is what I am troubled about.
444: Well I am not asking you a thing on earth about the date, – I put at any time before his death, – at any time from 1830 up to 1844. Pick your own time any where within these limits?
Yes sir, the principle was taught.
445: Taught to the church was it?
It was taught privately.
446: To the church it was taught, – do you say it was taught privately to the church? Answer the question sir?
Well let me see how that comes in. The date is what bothers me.
447: I have stated to you Mr. Witness repeatedly that I don’t care about any date. I don’t ask you and I don’t want you to fix any specific date, – but simply to answer whether or not you heard Joseph Smith teach that principle to the church at any time or place publicly or privately during his lifetime. You can pick your own time if you like, but I don’t care whether you do it or not?
Yes sir, he taught the principle.
448: Did he teach it publicly or privately?
Privately I think it was.
449: Did he tach it to the church?
To individuals in the church. There is no doubt of that. I guess I had better put it that way.
450: What way?
That he taught it to individuals in the church.
451: Then he did not teach it to the church to your knowledge, did he?
Oh he taught a good many things.
452: Well did he teach the practice of polygamy to the church to your knowledge?
He taught it to individuals who were members of the church.
453: Don’t you know that he did not teach it to the church at all?
I guess that is better.
454: You guess that is better?
455: Then you don’t know that he did teach it publicly to the church?
He taught it privately.
456: You know that he did not teach it to the church as a church either publicly or privately, don’t you?
I know that he taught it to individuals in the church.
457: Now don’t you know that he did not teach it to the church either publicly or privately, – now answer that question will you please? Answer that question either yes or no, if you please?
By George, my head feels so terrible bad I am about sick.
458: Your head feels terrible bad?
Yes sir, the way you talk makes it rumble so I can’t thin of anything.
459: My questions makes your head rumble don’t it?
Yes sir, it makes it rumble all through, – darned if it don’t.
460: Get that down Examiner “I’ll be darned if it don’t”
Yes sir, I’ll be darned if it don’t. You can put it down a dozen time if you please.
461: You can hear me without trouble when I say anything like that?
Yes sir. I know that I am partially deaf, but you holler so loud that it makes my head hurt.
462: Well I did not think I was talking so loud, but I will ask you that question again in a quieter tone of voice, – did you ever hear Joseph Smith teach the doctrine of the practice of polygamy to the church, either publicly or privately, – you understand that, don’t you?
463: Well what do you say by way of answer?
Well, he taught the principle. I have said that fifty times I think.
464: To the church I mean?
He taught the principle I say.
465: Mr. Noble will you answer me a fair square question?
Yes sir, or a round one either if I can.
466: Then why don’t you do it?
I will do it if I can conscientiously do so. I am trying to study it up and alswer them if I can conscientiously do so.
467: Well conscientiously I am asking you this question and I will state right here that I propose to have an answer to it if I have to stay here all week. I know my legal rights, and I am not going to be evaded. I would like you to state if you ever heard Joseph Smith teach the church either publicly or privately the practice of polygamy, – that is, that a man could have more wives than one? Now I am not asking you what he said to Joh or Thomas of to Betsey Jane or Joanner, but what he said to the church?
He taught things to the church, that unless the key was turned on their minds you would not know a darned thing on what he was driving at.
468: Well I move to strike out all that answer except the word “darned,”
What a comfortable place this is for a sick fellow.
469: And let the record show that the party what uses such language is an elder in this church out here in Utah?
Yes sir, let the record show that. Oh I don’t wrap a Pharisaical coat around me and say I am not like that other fellow, for I swear frequently when I am driven to it. I have sworn or affirmed before this frequently when I was on the stand, for I am rather a plain dealer, or used to be. I don’t like to do it though, for it is not right you know, but we are all weak, and I am especially so perhaps.
470: You feel pretty bad over it do you?
Yes sir, pretty bad.
471: You felt pretty bad the other day didn’t you when you went off the witness stand didn’t you?
I know I was might glad when I got off it.
472: You were very sick that day?
Yes sir, I did not feel as well as I would like to feel.
473: Yet you were able to run a quarter of a mile to catch a train, and beat nearly all the boys that were there?
Oh, no, – I have seen the time when I could do it, but not now.
474: You ran from the Hot Springs up to the railroad to catch it didn’t you?
Up to the railroad?
475: Yes sir, – up to the railway depot to catch the train. Didn’t you run like a deer there?
I can’t tell you.
476: Don’t you know there was a lot of parties standing there at the bath house up here at Beck’s Hot Springs and say you run to catch the train, and you were laughing at it and saying that you could beat anybody in the town running. Counsel for the defendants objects to the question asked the witness for the reasons and on the grounds above set forth.
477: Is that not so?
Ah, pshaw now, – that is all hook.
478: Now don’t you know you ran all the way from the bath house to catch the train?
I might have stepped along a little quick for I do that once in a while, but I can’t hurry myself up now like I once could. I ain’t as limber as I used to be, for I have seen the time I wouldn’t hesitate to take a fall out of a man like you and know how it would come out to. When I was young I was one of the boys I can tell you.
479: Well that may be, – what you mean to say now is that you can’t run all the day?
480: Well now I am in a good humor this morning, and I hope you are too, but I would like for you to answer my questions?
Well I would like to do so too, and I would if I could consistently.
481: Was there any publication that you know of in Nauvoo, denouncing polygamy?
482: At any time when the church was there, and before the death of Joseph Smith?
483: Yes sir, while you were there?
When I was there?
484: Yes sir, when you was there, acting as an high priest, and bishop and elder and teacher to the church?
Well sir, I have forgotten most all that I ever did know, – I was going to say, –
485: Don’t you know that there was, and that it was published in the Times and Seasons?
486: Well my question included any time, but for your information or enlightenment I will say it was in 1842
I can’t say positively that I do.
487: Well you recollect such a publication, don’t you, – you recollect such a publication being made, don’t you?
Well if it was not a publication there was a talk, a sound, or a smattering of the kind I have heard somewhere, but to put it in shape I could not do it.
488: You know it was publicly denounced there don’t you?
489: You know it was publicly denounced there some time in 1842, don’t you?
490: Yes sir?
Well now is it not strange, I can’t answer you, for I have things so curmuddled that I can’t tell you. It beats all, – it really does.
491: You read the Times and Seasons there did you?
I used to read it some.
492: The bishop had to read it didn’t he to keep posted on church affairs as detailed in the church papers didn’t he?
I don’t know what he had to do, or what he didn’t have to do.
493: Well you read the Times and Seasons?
Of course I did some, I said I did.
494: At the time you lived there in Nauvoo?
495: Well I want to read you something here to refresh your recollection?
Well go on and read it.
496: It is from the October number of the Times and Seasons, – October 1st 1842, – can’t you see that (handing witness a book)?
497: You can’t see that?
498: Can’t you see these big letters at the top?
“Times and Seasons.”
499: Yes sir?
500: And that is the paper you used to read?
Yes sir I guess so.
501: Read the next line?
“City of Nauvoo.” is it not?
502: Yes sir. Now read the next line?
I can’t do it.
503: Can’t you read that?
504: Is it not Saturday October 1st 1842?
It looks like it. I believe that is what it is.
505: Now that is the paper you used to read there as the church paper is it not?
It looks like it very much.
506: Now I want to read the matter here on page nine hundred and thirty nine for the purpose of refreshing your recollection, – We the undersigned member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and residents of the City of Nauvoo, persons of families, do hereby certify and declare that we know of no other rule or system of marriage that the one published from the book of Doctrine and Covenants and we give this certificate to show that the Dr. J.C. Bennett’s “secret wife system” is a creature of his own make, as we know of no such society in this place no never did.” Now do you recollect that?
507: Did you ever hear what I read to you just now?
508: Did you ever hear that statement read before?
I have heard it, but lost it out of my mind long ago.
509: Well now you knew that was published did you not, – you knew that was published in the church paper, didn’t you?
That what was published?
510: What I have read to you?
What is it?
511: This certificate that I have just read to you?
I don’t know about that certificate.
512: You remember reading that in the church paper don’t you?
I don’t remember anything about it at all scarcely.
513: Well do you remember anything about it? Let me read it to you again, – “We, the undersigned members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and residents of the City of Nauvoo, persons of families, do hereby certify and declare that we know of no other system or rule of marriage than the one published from the book of doctrine and covenants, and we give this certificate to show that Dr. J.C. Bennett “secret wife system” is a creature of his own make as we know of no such society in this place, nor never did.” No that is signed S. Bennett, George Miller, Alpheus Cutler, Reynolds Cahoon, Wilson Law, W. Woodruff, N.K. Whitney, Albert Pettey, Elias Higbee, John Taylor, E. Robinson and Aaron Johnson. Now you know S. Bennett, did you not?
514: Is that the Bennett of which it speaks, – that speaks.
515: And George Miller, – you knew him also?
516: You knew him in Nauvoo, did you not?
Yes sir, the name is familiar.
517: And Alpheus Cutler, – you knew him also, didn’t you?
The name is familiar.
518: And Reynolds Cahoon, – you knew him also?
519: And Wilson Law, – you knew him?
520: And W. Woodruff, – you knew him?
Yes sir. That is Wilford Woodruff I suppose.
521: The president of the church out here at this time?
522: You knew him there in Nauvoo?
523: He was one of the Twelve in Nauvoo at that time?
Yes sir. I believe he was.
524: And you knew N.K. Whitney too?
525: He was he presiding Bishop at that time?
Yes sir, I believe so.
526: What about Albert Pettey?
That name is familiar to me too.
527: You knew him also didn’t you?
I believe so, but I wouldn’t be sure.
528: And Elias Higbee, you knew him?
529: He is the man you called Judge Higbee there at Nauvoo?
530: And John Taylor?
531: You knew him there at Nauvoo?
532: He was a member of the quorum of Twelve at that time there in Nauvoo, wasn’t he?
533: And afterwards was the president of the church out here in Utah, after Brigham Young. He succeeded Brigham Young as the President of the church didn’t he?
534: And Ebenezer Robinson, you knew him too?
535: Yes sir, E. Robinson?
The name sounds familiar to me some. Yes sir I did know him, but I was not much acquainted with him then.
536: Well you knew the man that was with Don Carlos Smith, editing the Times and Seasons, did you not?
Yes, I believe I knew him some. I knew him when I would see him at any rate, and perhaps I knew him better than that.
537: Well that was E. Robinson, was it not?
I believe so.
537: And Aaron Johnson, didn’t you know him?
The name is familiar to me.
538: You knew every one of these men, didn’t you?
Yes sir, I knew them personally I think.
539: And all of them?
540: And one of them was the presiding Bishop over you, wasn’t he?
541: And that was N.K. Whitney?
Yes sir, he was the bishop.
542: The presiding bishop of the church?
543: And you knew that that certificate was published, for you read it in the paper at the time didn’t you, at the time it was published you read it in the paper? Does not these facts recall it to your mind, and you remember now that you read it in the paper?
I don’t seem to be familiar with that, but I knew those men, there is no doubt about that.
544: Do you think they would have signed their names to a document of that kind if it had not been true?
I don’t know.
545: Do you say now that you did not read that in the paper at the time it was published?
No sir. I say I don’t remember anything about it.
546: Well now I have read that to you and given you the date, and now I will ask you if it was true or false at the time it was made, was it true or not true on the first day of October 1842 that there was no other system of marriage taught in the church, or practiced in it other than the system set forth in the book of Doctrine and Covenants?
I don’t know whether there was or not.
547: You don’t know anything about it, is that what you say?
548: Well you don’t think that Wilford Woodruff would
have signed his name to a declaration of that kind unless it had been true, do you?
What is that? 540 (Missing numbers 541 – 549)
548: Cannot you hear what I say, – am I not speaking loud enough?
Well yes, I guess there is a rumbling in my head that prevents me from hearing what is said very well.
550: I asked you if you think that Wilford Woodruff, the President of your church here, would have signed his name to a declaration or affidavit of that kind if it had not been true?
551: A declaration declaring that there was no such a doctrine or principle taught or practiced in the church as plurality of wives, or the secret wife system of John C. Bennett, or any thing of that kind, if it had not been true?
552: Well now I want to refresh your recollection a little further and read you another one that is signed by nineteen women, all of whom I think you will know when I read their names?
I don’t know that I will.
553: Well I will read it and see if you do, – “We, the undersigned members of the ladies relief society, and married females, do certify and declare, that we know of no system of marriage being practiced in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints save the one contained in the book of doctrine and covenants, and we give this certificate to the public to show that J.C. Bennett’s “secret wife system” is a disclosure of his own make”. Now that is signed by the following ladies, – Emma Smith, president., Elizabeth Ann Whitney, Counselor., Sarah M. Cleveland, Counselor., Eliza R. Snow, Secretary., Mary C. Miller., Lois Cutler., Thirza Cahoon., Ann Hunter., Jane Law., Sophia R. Marks., Polly Z. Johnson., Abigail Works., Catharine Petty, – Sarah Higbee., Phebe Woodruff, – Lenora Taylor, Sarah Hillman., Rosanna Marks., Angeline Robinson.”
554: now do you recollect any thing about that being published at the time?
555: You recollect that?
I recollect something about it.
556: You recollect something about this one?
557: Now that is signed be Emma Smith?
Yes sir, so it says.
558: She was the president of that society?
559: And you knew her?
560: She was the wife of Joseph Smith the prophet?
561: And Elizabeth Ann Whitney, a counselor to the president, you knew her?
562: And Sarah M. Cleveland, another counselor to the president, you also knew her?
Well I can’t say that I knew her but I have heard of her name.
563: And Eliza R. Snow, the secretary, – you knew her also?
I knew her well.
564: And Mary C. Miller, – you knew her didn’t you?
565: Mary C. Miller, – you knew her also?
I was not much acquainted with her.
566: And Lois Cutler, – you knew her?
The wife of Alpheus Cutler?
567: Yes sir?
I heard the sound, – but I knew Alpheus Cutler well.
568: And Thirza Cahoon, – you knew her?
These were members of the relief society?
569: Yes sir, that is what I am reading you, – the names of certain members of the ladies relief society that were signed to this certificate?
570: You knew Thirza Cahoon?
I guess I did.
571: And Ann Hunter, – you knew her also?
Well I recollect the name. It sounds familiar.
572: And Jane Law, – you knew her also?
573: Yes sir?
574: And Sophia R. Marks?
The name Marks is familiar to me. I think it is probable that I knew her and all the rest of them.
575: And Polly Z. Johnson, – that is familiar to you also is it not?
Not so much as the rest of them. I don’t know that I knew her.
576: Well how is it about Abigail Works?
Well it seems to me that I have heard the sound of that name but I don’t know so much about it either.
577: Catherine Pettey, – did you know her too?
578: Sarah Higbee, – did you know her?
I have heard these names, – some of them, – some of them I remember knowing, and some of them I don’t remember about, and others I have heard the sound of their names it seems to me, but I don’t recollect much about them.
579: Sarah Higbee was the wife of Judge Higbee, – you knew her didn’t you?
Yes sir, I guess so.
580: did you know Phebe Woodruff?
581: That is the wife of President Woodruff?
Yes sir she was his wife at that time.
582: And Lenora Taylor, – you knew her for she was the wife of John Taylor?
583: And Sarah Hillman, – did you know her?
Not so much.
584: And Rosanna Marks, the wife of William Marks, – did you know her also?
I knew Marks but I did not know very much about his family.
585: And Angelina Robinson, – did you know her?
586: now you knew most of these ladies at that time who signed this certificate, and the gentleman who signed it you knew all of them, – thirty one in number, – they were denouncing the system of polygamy at that time and stating that there was no such a ptinciple taught in the church at that time, were they not according to these certificates that I have read to you?
587: Well you read it in the paper, did not you?
588: Not much?
589: Well you read it a little didn’t you?
I don’t recollect.
590: If you did not read it yourself, or if you cannot recollect whether or not you read it yourself, you recollect that you heard it read, don’t you?
If I did I don’t call it up now.
591: Well now did you know it all the time, – did you know that all those parties whose names I have read were lying about it?
No sir, I don’t know that.
592: You have stated that Joseph Smith taught it privately to individual members of the church long prior to that time, and if that was so is it not a fact that what these parties subscribed their names to here was a lie and false and they knew it?
No sir, I don’t know it.
593: You don’t know whether they were or were not?
NO sir. Were they denouncing it, – all these people?
594: Yes sir, they were all of them denouncing it. Let me read it to you again, and see whether you will say it was denouncing it or not, – “We, the undersigned members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and residents of the city of Nauvoo, persons of families, do hereby certify, and declare that we know of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published from the book of Doctrine and Covenants, and we give this certificate to show that Dr. J.C. Bennett’s “secret wife system” is a creature of his own make, as we know of no such society in this place nor never did.” Noe the one signed by the member of the ladies relief society is almost identical in language with that. Now that was denouncing all other systems excepting the one in the book of Doctrine and Covenants, wasn’t it?
595: Well what do you say about that, – was that denouncing it?
596: What do you say to that? Can’t you answer that question?
597: Why not? Is it because your head is muddled again?
Yes sir, my head is muddled again, and I don’t feel a bit well.
598: Now do you know of any instance in which a woman who was not a member of the church was taken as a plural wife?
That was not a member of the church?
599: Yes sir?
Well I don’t call up any. 600 (No question or answer listed)
601: When did you say the other day that Louisa Beeman was sealed to Joseph Smith?
602: Yes sir?
Let me see, that was in, – I can’t remember that.
603: Well you ought to remember that, for you said you were the elder that preformed the ceremony?
604: Well when was it?
Well I was trying to call it up.
605: Well call it up and tell us when it was?
Well that was in 1842 I think.
606: You think today it was in 1842 do you?
Or was it in 1841, – I am not certain.
607: Well I am not so certain that it was then, or whether it was at all, for that is what I am trying to get from you? As far as I am concerned I have no hesitation in saying that I don’t believe it ever did occur?
Yes sir, it did, but I am not certain of the time. There comes in again the question of dates, and that is what I can’t remember.
608: Well when was it?
Well it was in 1841 or 1842 some where.
609: Well how was it in either one of these years?
Yes sir. It is difficult for me to remember, but I am pretty sure it was in either one of these years
610: Well which one of them was it in?
Well now that is what I can’t remember. I think it was in 1841 but it might have been in 1842.
611: Now you said the other day positively that it was in ’40, – I would like you to reconcile the statement you make now with that?
Did I say ’40?
612: That is what you said?
That he was sealed to her?
613: Yes sir, that is what you said, that it was in 1840 and that you performed the ceremony?
Well I am inclined to think it was a little later than that.
614: You think now that it was a little later than 1840.
615: The other day you said it was when you lived in Iowa?
Yes sir, it was in Iowa. It was when I lived across the river in Iowa at Montrose.
616: And you said that you went across to Nauvoo to live in 1841, and that it was when you lived in Iowa before you moved to Nauvoo, so it must have been in 1840?
Well I did live in Iowa in ’40.
617: I know that you said the other day that the marriage occurred in your house, and that yo performed the marriage ceremony?
618: You did not?
619: Do you swear positively now that you did not say that?
That it was performed in my house?
620: Yes sir?
No sir I did not say any such a thing.
621: You said that the marriage ceremony was performed at your house in Montrose across the river in Iowa from Nauvoo, – you said that they were married there, and that you performed the marriage ceremony?
No sir, it was not performed there.
622: Now you want to go back on that date?
Well I don’t care about the date, – that is a mistake.
623: You want to go back on that date do you?
Let me see the date and I will tell you.
624: Well never mind about the date, – was the ceremony not performed at your house in Montrose, Iowa, just across the river from Nauvoo, and did you not so testify the other day on direct examination?
I must have come over there to Nauvoo in 1841 or about that time.
625: I did not ask you that, – I asked you if you did not testify on direct examination the other day that you married Joseph Smith to your sister-in-law, Louisa Beeman in your house across the river in Iowa from Nauvoo?
Well if I did I must have been mistaken and did not understand the question.
626: I will ask you this question and I want you to answer it squarely so that you can be got on record some way in the question? Did you not marry Joseph Smith and Louisa Beeman over at Montrose Iowa in your house where you lived at that time before you moved over to Nauvoo?
No sir it was not performed there. It was performed on this side of the river.
627: Do you mean that it was performed in Nauvoo?
628: At whose house?
629: Who was present?
630: Who besides yourself and Louisa Beeman, your daughter or was she your daughter?
Now then hold on a little and let me explain.
631: Well I think you could tell whether or not she was
your daughter or not without any explanation, – for that is something that does not require explanation?
Who was that?
632: Louisa Beeman?
She was my sister-in-law.
633: Your wife’s sister?
634: Well she was present at that time wasn’t she?
She likely to be present, I think.
635: Louisa Beeman was present then?
Of course she was.
636: And your wife was also present?
637: Is your wife living?
No sir. Well I have that a little mixed up.
638: You have become a little mixed up?
639: You don’t want to say that your wife was present? Is that it?
Yes sir, she was there, but I am a little mixed up about the time we moved over there, bu by ginger, I went back across the river again that same night after performing the marriage ceremony.
640: You were called over as an elder to perform that marriage ceremony? Is that it?
641: Joseph Smith wrote to you as an elder to come over and perform that ceremony?
He did not write me.
642: Well did he meet you somewhere, and tell you to come over and do it?
Well U can’t say how that was. I know I performed it.
643: Was that sealing for time and eternity?
For time and eternity.
644: For time and eternity?
645: They were sealed for time and eternity?
646: Well that was in 1841 wasn’t it?
Yes sir, some time in 1841 or 1842.
647: Well which was it, – 1841 or 1842?
Well I have tried to study it our and see which it was.
648: Well it was either 1841 or 1842 was it not?
It was thereabouts.
649: Well 1843 would be thereabouts? Which year was it?
It was before that.
650: Before what time?
Before that time.
651: Do you mean it was before 1843?
652: And it was before 1842 was it not?
Perhaps it was.
653: Don’t you know it was in 1841?
I am inclined to think it was thereabouts.
654: You are inclined to think it was in 1841 or thereabouts?
655: Well after you had performed this ceremony you read this statement which I have read to you denouncing the statement that any such thing was practiced in the church?
I don’t remember any thing about those things much.
656: You heard of it?
657: Of these declarations or certificates that were published?
I heard the sound somewhere.
658: Don’t you know that the church was denouncing plural marriage in 1842? Don’t you know that to be a fact Mr. Witness?
Oh, the church did you say?
659: Yes sir, that the church was denouncing plural marriage in 1842?
660: Yes sir? Answer the question?
I don’t remember dates worth a cent, some how.
661: You were not paying any attention to what the church said, were you?
622: You were?
Yes sir, I was paying attention to what the prophet said.
663: You were paying attention to what the prophet said?
Yes sir. He was the man that restored the priesthood to the earth here, and he was about as good as I could pay attention to.
664: There were a few fellows there in Nauvoo at that time wasn’t there, who claimed that they were higher than the church? Is that not the fact Mr. Witness?
665: Was there not a few that claimed that hey were higher than the church or any law of the church?
666: Answer the question? Didn’t they claim to be higher than the church, and superior to the law of the church?
Higher than the law of the church?
667: Ye sir Was there not a few that made that claim?
I don’t know what they claimed. I did not claim anything of that kind.
668: You did not claim any thing?
No sir, not much.
669: Did you not claim that Joseph was higher than the law?
670: Yes sir?
Well we received the law through him.
671: And that he was higher than the law? You thought that didn’t you?
Well what if I did?
672: Well answer the question, did you not claim and think that he was higher than the law?
Well he was the law.
673: He was the law himself, according to your way of thinking?
Well he gave us the law.
674: You believed that didn’t you that he was the law?
Well, he was the one that restored the priesthood to hearth.
675: Well was he the law of the church?
He gave the law to the church.
676: Well was he the law of the church?
He had to do with it any way.
677: Well he made the law didn’t he?
He received it from the Lord all right enough.
678: Now you are postie that it was before 1843 that you performed this marriage ceremony marrying Joseph Smith and Louisa Beeman? You are sure of that are you not?
679: You are positive of that?
680: You performed the ceremony and returned across the river the same night did you not? Is that not what you said?
681: What made you say the other day that Joseph Smith and that woman you sealed to him slept together that night?
Because they did slepp together.
682: If you were not there that night how do you know that they slept together?
Well they slept to ether I know. If it was not that night it was two or three nights after that.
683: Where did they slepp together?
Right straight across the river at my house they selpt together.
684: Well you said the other day that the night you married them they slept together, and now you say today, that you went across the river after you married them, – after you performed the ceremony.
685: That is just precisely what you said, and I am not attempting to misled you at all. How is that now?
Put the question again.
686: You said the other day that the night you married them they slept together, and now today you say after you married them you went across the river and did not say there that night? Now I want you to anser this plain square question. Did he sleep with her the first night after the ceremony was performed?
687: Now you say that he did sleep with her?
688: How do you know he did?
Well I was there.
689: And you saw them go to bed together?
I gave him counsel
690: What counsel did you give him?
I said “blow out the lights and get into bed, and you will be safer there”.,and he took my advice or counsel. (witness laughs heartily.)
691: Let the record show that this witness is applauding himself upon the smartness of his answer.
692: You have sworn here today, that the day you performed that marriage ceremony, or whatever ceremony it was, that you went back across the river, and were not there at all.
I was there in Nauvoo at the time.
693: You went across the river did you not,-is that not what you said?
Yes sir, but I told him that.
694: You told him that in the day time?
695: Well when was it you told him that?
It was in the night time.
696: What time in the night was it?
That I married them?
697: Yes sir.
Well it was in the evening sometime,-I can’t tell you the exact time.
698: Well was it about six or seven or eight o’clock?
Yes sir, somewhere along there.
699: Well which was it,-six or seven or eight o’clock?
I can’t tell you.
700: Well did you stay there until the lights were blown out?
No sir I did not stay until they blowed out the lights then.
701: Well you did not see him get into bed with her that time?
702: And so you don’t know whether he followed you advice from our own knowledge?
702: No sir, I did not see him, but he told me he did.
703: Well do you know from you won knowledge that he did?
Well I am confident he did.
704: But you don’t know it of you own knowledge from seeing him do it?
No sir, for I was not there.
705: Was Emma Smith there?
706: Did she know anything about it?
No sir, I think not.
707: Were they married at his house?
708: Where were they married,-were they married at your house?
Well it was a house that I had rented,-or a house that I owned bye the bye, for I owned a whole block there there that I had bought.
709: Your family did not live there then?
Not then, but they did directly after that, for they moved there after that.
710: Did you not say the other day that you married them at your own house, and that Louisa Beeman was there, and that your wife was also there?
Well it was my house, and Louisa was there of course, else she could not have been married to him.
711: Did you not say the other day that your wife was also there?
Well she was there afterwards for she moved there afterwards.
712: Did you not say the other day that your wife was there and your family at the time you married them?
Well she was there at the house afterwards.
714: She was not there when you married them?
My wife you mean?
Your wife, and no one else I am inquiring about now?
She w there in the following years.
716: Was your wife there at the identical time that you married Joseph Smith to Louisa Beeman. I don’t care anything about what followed? That is the question, and you must answer it. By. Mr. Cabell, –
717: Go ahead and answer it in your own way,. Mr. Noble, answer it as best you can?
What is your question?
718: Was your wife there when you married him?
When I married Joseph Smith?
719: Yes sir, when you performed that marriage ceremony between him and Louisa Beeman?
No sir. She was not there that night at the time they were married, but I married them in my house, and she was there afterwards. I owned the block there. I owned the hull of it, house and everything that was in it, and it was in that house they were married. I owned the hull of that block, and if you don’t believe me I have the papers in my pocket to show that I owned it. I have the deeds right here in my pocket, and I gave five thousand dollars for it, and took land for it, and gave him possession of it myself when I Ieft there.
720: How do you reconcile that statement of yours with the private journal of Joseph Smith which I shall now read to you, from the Millennial Star, published by your Utah church, Thursday May 11th 1843, at 6 A.M. baptized Louisa Beeman, Sarah Alley and others?
721: That is the diary of Joseph Smith published in the Millennial Star from his own diary, and it was published by the Utah church here in Salt Lake, and the diary of Joseph Smith, and you have testified that you were a member in good standing of the church that published this publication? Now how do you reconcile your statement with this I have read?
Well I don’t know anything about that at all.
722: Now you said that there was not any ladies in the church, – I should say that there was not anybody that were not members of the church, -ladies,-who were not members were not taken in plural marriage? That is your statement as it is down o the record?
There did not anybody, -what was that?
723: There did not any body parry ladies who were not members of the church as plural wives? Did you not say that?
I say that. Oh pshaw, – I don’t believe I said that. No sir, I don’t believe I said that at all.
724: Well do you say that women who did not belong to the church were taken as plural wives, do you now say that?
Well I would not wonder.
725: Answer the question, – do you now say that women who were not members of the church were taken as plural wives?
Well I say I wouldn’t wonder but that they were.
726: Well do you not know, or did you ever know of any women who were taken as plural wives, before they became members of the church?
Well I expect as a rule they took a soaking beforehand.
727: Had Louisa taken a soaking before she was married to Joseph Smith?
728: She was a member of the church at the time that she married him?
729: And that you swear to positively?
Yes sir, to be sure she was. She belonged to the church at that time, – there is no manner of doubt as to that. 729 (Second 729)
729: She was a member of the church then at that time?
730: Well it says here that she was baptized by Joseph Smith on the 11th day of May 1848, – now when do you say that you married her to Joseph Smith?
731: You know that of your own personal knowledge?
732: And there is no doubt in your mind as to that?
No sir. I am confident of it.
733: Well when was she baptized?
I could not give you the date?
734: Please state how you know that she was a member of the church before 1843>?
735: Yes sir?
Why she was living at my house and so was her mother after the death of her father, and ought to know whether or not she belonged to the church?
736: When did her father die?
He died, – let me see, – well he died there in Kirtland.
737: So you don’t know when she was baptized?
I know she was a member of the church before that?
738: But you can’t give the date of her baptism?
739: Is there anything that you can refer to that would give you the date of her baptism?
No sir, I can’t do it now, but I guess if I had time I could find some papers that would give the date. It was the time that Alva Beeman came up there to Kirtland with is family, –
740: Well I don’t care anything about when he came to Kirtland or anywhere else, – the fact is that you can’t harmonize your statement with the statement made by Joseph Smith as it appears here in his published diary, in which he says that she was baptized in 1848 can you?
It is difficult for me to tell these thins without going right to the papers and finding it out, – it is difficult for me to remember these dates.
741: Well now if Louisa Beeman was not baptized until May 11th 1848 then you did not marry her in 1841 or 1842 to Joseph Smith? You did not marry her then to him, for you married her after she was baptized?
742: Answer the question?
What is it?
743: You did not marry Louisa Beeman to Joseph Smith until after she was baptized into the church did you?
No sir, I suppose not, –
744: Not until after she had become a member of the church did you?
She was baptized before that, – and she was baptized before I married her to Joseph Smith but I am now studying up the date that Alva Beeman moved to Kirtland, for at that time I know that the prophet went down into the river there, and he baptized Father Beeman and his family. I had gone up there to Kirtland with one girl out of the family came up there to Kirtland afterwards and were baptized into the church, but I can’t give you precisely the date. I remember that, and the old gentleman did not live there but one year before he died.
745: That was at Kirtland?
746: And the old gentleman you refer to was Mr. Beeman?
747: Your wife’s father, and the father of Louisa Beeman?
748: The old gentleman Beeman was baptized in 1833 when you were there helping the prophet to make the hay, wasn’t he?
Oh Lord not, not then.
749: You say “Oh Lord no”?
No sir, he hadn’t moved up there then. That time I was there was years before I was married, nd it was not until after I was married and living in Kirtland that they came there?
750: Well then it was in 1837 when Joseph was in Kirtland that they came there and were baptized, – Kirtland that they came there and were baptized, – wasn’t it then?
I can’t remember these days. That is where my head is off, but you see it was after I had been up there in Clay County and had the cholera and all that, – it was after I returned and I was there at Kirtland repairing a mill that belonged to the church, –
751: Well I don’t care about that, and I move to exclude it as not responsive?
Well I was trying to fix it in my memory in some way.
752: If you can recollect the date or about the date, say so, – but not otherwise, for we don’t want any guess work about this?
Well I can’t remember the dates.
753: Now what law did you marry Louisa Beeman to Joseph Smith by? Under what law was it? Was it under the law or by the law in the book of Doctrine and Covenants?
I did not go into any book for the law at all.
754: Well under what law did you perform the ceremony, – the law of the polygamous revelation, that there has been so much talk about? Was that the law? Didn’t you have an authority for the law at all?
755: Well what was it?
I held a license from the court authorizing me to perform marriage ceremonies.
756: From what court?
It was from the right court.
757: Well what court was it?
It was from the clerk of the court.
758: Well what court was it?
759: Yes sir?
The court of law.
760: Was it a court in Illinois?
761: Was it the clerk of the court of Hancock County?
Yes sir, it was from Hancock County or any other county, – I don’t know which it was, but I have records at home showing that I was authorized to per- form marriages. I have the records here to prove that.
762: Well produce them for I would like to see them.
(witness hereupon produces a bundle of papers) This is the deed from the prophet to me in Nauvoo.
763: I thought you said you sold the land to him and not he to you?
No sir, it was the other way.
764: It was the other way, – he sold it to you?
765: Let me see it?
Yes sir, you can see it and welcome. (witness hands counsel a paper.)
766: (Counsel for plaintiff interrogating witness along with E.L. Kelley, examines the paper and says) Well there is one question I want to ask you about this same deed, and it is this, – Why did not Louisa Beeman sign this deed from the prophet to you, as the wife of the prophet?
Well it was not necessary.
767: It was not necessary, you say?
768: She was his wife?
I question whether she was his wife or not when I got that.
769: Well this was on the 27th of July 1841?
770: Well was she married to him then?
I hardly think she was then.
771: Why did not Emma sign it as his wife?
Emma has signed it.
772: It was necessary then for her to sign it?
Of course it was.
773: Consequently you had her sign it?
Yes sir. She signed it anyway.
774: Well I want that certificate from the clerk of the court there that you say gave you power and authority to marry people?
I haven’t it with me sir. I thought I had but I see I haven’t.
775: Don’t you know that your certificate, or which you speak, came from the church, and not from the court?
No sir, it was not from the church. Good Lord don’t I know I had one from the court? No sir, it was not from the church, for I could solemnize marriage outside of the church.
776: You did that because you were an elder?
I did it because I had authority to do it from the court.
777: You had authority from the court to marry Joseph Smith to Louisa Beeman?
Yes sir. Well no, – that is not right, – not a bit of it, for this time the court was for time. It was just “until death do you seperate” and I married them in the church and the court had nothing to do with it, but I had a license all the same authorizing me to perform marriages in and out out of the church if I like to do so.
778: Where did you get your certificate to marry for time and eternity both?
I had it sure enough.
779: Did you get that from the clerk of Hancock County also?
I got that from the proper authority.
780: Did it come from Joseph Smith?
I got it from the great law giver.
781: Did Joseph Smith have a license from the clerk of the court to marry Louisa Beeman?
Put that again.
782: Did Joseph Smith have a license from the clerk of the court permitting him to marry Louisa Beeman?
I didn’t see any.
783: Well did he have any?
I don’t know.
784: Did you marry him according to the laws of the
I think so.
785: Well did you?
786: Well if you had married him according to the laws of the state of Illinois which required in license, you would have had the license in your possession at some time, wouldn’t you?
I suppose so.
787: And you would have had to make a return on it to the clerk of the court wouldn’t you?
788: You did not make any report of record of that marriage and send it to the clerk of the court did you?
789: There was no license, was there, issued by the clerk of the court, or by any body else for the marriage?
For the marriage, did you say?
790: Yes sir, – to marry Joseph Smith to Louisa Beeman, – for sealing her to him?
791: Why not?
Well we did not have to use them in marriages of that kind, – that was a marriage performed in the church, and it was a secret marriage as I told you many a time.
792: Was that marriage performed under the law or the color of law?
793: No where was your law for that marriage or sealing, – where did you get it?
I got it all right, – right from the prophet himself. That is where I got it.
794: He just told you it was necessary for him to have Louisa Beeman?
795: And asked you to seal her to him?
796: And you did it?
797: You took his word for it?
798: And did not hesitate about it?
No sir, I took his word for it quicker than scat.
799: And you sealed him to her?
I sealed her to him and I did a good job too.
800: There was no revelation for it?
I don’t know anything about the revelations.
801: You don’t know anything about whether there was any revelation for it, – any revelation authorizing it or not, – you just took his word for it?
Yes sir. He said it was all right and I believed him.
802: Did you perform it in accordance with this revelation published in the book of Doctrine and Covenants, – published by your church here in Utah?
803: I mean this polygamous revelation?
804: I don’t know whether it was or not.
805: Well it is dated here in 1843, – was it in existence at the time that you married Louisa Beeman to Joseph Smith?
I don’t know anything about it, and I don’t care a darned thing about it either.
806: That is another of the things that you don’t care a darned thing about too?
Yes sir, you can have it that way if you want it that way.
807: Well is that not just what you said?
I expect it is, – you are enough to badger the life out of a fellow, and I kind of lose my temper sometimes, but I will try and bear with you.
808: Don’t that revelation say that the first wife of a man must give her consent to it before he can marry a plural wife, – must take the plural wife by the hand and give her to her husband as a wife before the ceremony can be celebrated?
809: Is that not what the commandment says?
I don’t know anything about what it says.
810: You don’t know as a matter of fact, whether there was any revelation at the time that you married Louisa Beeman to Joseph Smith, or not?
No sir, I don’t know anything about it, only I had it kind of stuck in me that there was.
811: The Lord stuck it into you?
Yes sir, I expect so and he has stuck it in me that I must fight my way through with you, – I see that plainly enough. Oh you are not the only cross I have had to bear in my time, and I guess I will out-last you, so go ahead, for I am tough, – tougher than I look, perhaps.
812: You don’t feel as bad now as you did a while ago?
I feel bad enough, –
813: Did the Lord stick you up in here as a witness to tell all these things?
Well that is none of your business.
814: Is it not?
815: Well we will see about that, – who did stick you up to come here as a witness?
It is none of your business.
816: Whom did you consult after you left the witness stand here the other day?
817: Did you not consult with Woodruff?
No sir. I did not consult with him or anybody else, nor has any body insulted me only you.
818: Now I will ask you Mr. Noble, if you have not been known to the church as “the old man in Israel”?
I don’t know anything about it.
819: You don’t?
820: Did you never hear of that?
I never heard the name before as I know of. Counsel for rhe defendant objects to a repetition of the questions as the witness has state he did not know anything about it, and that “ought to be sufficient”.
821: Did you not write a communication to the Times and Seasons in 1844 as the “old man in Israel”?
822: Will you swear you did not?
Yes sir, emphatically.
823: You swear to that just as positively as anything else you have testified to?
Yes sir. Fetch on your Bible and I will swear on that too.
824: Well I have no Bible. They don’t use them out here.
Well they do, some of them do.
825: Now I will read from that communication signed be “the old man in Israel” for the purpose of refreshing your recollection, and see if you wrote it in 1844?
826: It is on page seven hundred and fifteen of the Times and Seasons, November 15th 1844, as identified by Wilford Woodruff. It is as follows, “The saints of the last days have witnessed the outgoings and incomings of so many apostates, that nothing but truth has any effect upon them”. Is that not your language?
827: Is that your language?
828: Well I will read a little further, “In the present instance, after the same quotations of Sydney and his clique, from the Bible, Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, to skulk off under the dreadful splendor of spiritual wifery, which is brought into account as graciously as if the law of the land allowed a man a plurality of wives is fiendish, and like the rest of Sydney’s revelation, just because he wanted to go to Pittsburg and live. Woe to the man or men who will this willfully lie to injure an innocent people. The law of the land and the rules of the church do not allow one man to have more than one wife alive at once, but if any man’s wife die he has a right to marry another, and to be sealed to both for eternity, to the living and the dead. there is no law of God or man against it. This is all the spiritual wife system that was ever tolerated in the church, and they know it”. Was not that your language?
829: “The law of the land and the rules of the church do not allow one man to have more than one wife alive at once, but if any man’s wife die he has a right to marry another, and to be sealed to both for eternity, to the living and the dead. There is no law of God or man against it. This is all the spiritual wife system that was ever tolerated in the church, and they know it.” Do you swear that that is not your language? Don’t you recollect writing that for the Times and Seasons?
830: You read it in the Times and Seasons at the time it was published, did you not?
I don’t know anything about it at all.
831: Did you not read it at the time it was published in the paper?
I don’t know anything at all about it.
832: Where did you live November 15th 1844?
I could not tell you now.
833: Did you live in Nauvoo?
834: Yes sir, in Nauvoo?
What time did you say?
835: I asked you if you lived in Nauvoo in 1844?
Our exodus was in 1846.
836: No sir, it was not in 1846, you were bishop of the fifth ward in Nauvoo in 1844 you said?
Yes sir. I think so, but still I don’t know anything about that nonsense that you have been reading me there.
837: Do you say that you were living there in Nauvoo in 1844?
Yes sir. I think it was. Yes I guess it was.
838: Do you know that the publication was made then denouncing polygamy?
839: Don’t you know that?
I say I don’t know anything about it.
840: Don’t you know that Syndey Rigdon had sent in a pamphlet there, a pamphlet into Nauvoo, containing quotations from the Bible and from the book of Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon, and you answered it, or it was answered in your church paper?
I don’t know.
841: What is your best recollection as to that?
I don’t know. I have heard the sound of a good many things.
842: And you heard the sound of this particular thing there too, don’t you?
I heard the sound, but as my knowledge is now it did not get much hold of me someway or other, for I can’t remember anything about it, and I don’t know that I ever heard about it.
843: You have heard the sound of this particular piece that I have read to you, too, didn’t you?
I don’t recollect much about it.
844: Did you hear the sound of this editorial of John Taylor’s too?
I don’t recollect the sound of that. I recollect the sound that I hear now, for you make sound enough to be heard all over the city I think.
845: Well do you recollect the sound of this piece I have read to you in Nauvoo, that is the question?
Well I don’t recollect a thing about that. All I recollect about it is the sound of your voice as you read it.
846: You heard me read it?
847: And you heard it as it was read?
Yes sir, pretty well.
848: Well now I am going to read what the editor says about it?
Well go ahead and get through as soon as you can.
849: “For the communication of an ‘Old man in Israel’ and the letter of Elder Addison Pratt, from the Islands of the Pacific Ocean, we bespeak a hearty welcome. They are genuine”
850: John Taylor was the head of the Twelve Apostles, was
he not at that time, – that is, in 1844?
I don’t think he was.
851: You don’t think he was a member of the Twelve Apostles?
Yes he was one of them, but I don’t know that he was the head of them.
852: Well he was one of them?
Yes sir, he was a member of the Twelve Apostles at one time, but I don’t know just exactly when it was, – that is, I don’t know just when he was made one of them.
853: He was the editor of the paper, – the Times and Seasons too, was he not?
I rather think he was, but I don’t know for certain about that.
854: Let me refresh your recollection by reading from the seven hundred and nineteenth page of this same book, at the time the same was published, – November 15th 1844, – “The Times and Seasons is printed and published about the first and fifteenth of every month, on the corner of Water and Bain streets, Nauvoo, Hancock County, Illinois, by John Taylor editor and proprietor. Terms two dollars, payable in all cases in advance. Any person procuring five new subscribers and forwarding us ten dollars current money, shall receive one volume, gratis. All letters must be addressed to John Taylor, editor, post paid – or they will not receive attention.” Now John Taylor was a member of the Quorum of Twelve at that time wasn’t he?
I don’t know about that time. I know he was at one time, but whether he was then or not I don’t know.
855: Well wasn’t he a member of the Quorum of Twelve when Joseph Smith died?
I am not certain with regard to the date.
856: Well answer the question – for I am not asking you about any specific date, – wasn’t he a member of the Quorum of Twelve at the time of the death of Joseph Smith?
I rather think he was, but I am not positive.
857: Now at the time of the publication of this that I have read you, was it the truth of was it a fraud upon the church and false?
When was that?
858: November 15th 1844?
859: Were the facts stated there true, or were they false and a fraud on the church, and published for the purpose of deceiving?
I don’t know.
860: That is another one of the matters that you don’t know anything about?
Well it is a fact that I don’t know anything about it, for I don’t recollect anything about it, and I have told you so many times.
861: Well you must know whether or not there was any law of the church that authorized polygamy at that time?
I know this, – that the law giver authorized it.
862: Well, do you know that there was any law of the church that authorized it?
No I don’t know anything about the law that you were reading from.
863: Well did you know anything about the law of the church up to 1844?
But very little.
864: Did you know anything after 1844?
Not very much I am very frank to acknowledge that I did not know very much either before or after that time, and don’t knot much now, and don’t pretend to.
865: You don’t know very much about it?
No sir, regarding the law of the church at that time I am frank to admit that my stock was limited.
866: —Don’t you know that the polygamous revelation was adopted by the church here in Salt Lake City in 1852?
867: —Yes sir, adopted by a General Conference here in this city where it was voted on and adopted as a part of the church law?
—It was, —so you say I believe.
—I don’t know it. I don’t believe I voted there.
869: —Were you there?
—I don’t believe I was.
870: —Well if you were not there, where were you?
—I guess I was off on a mission somewhere.
871: —What part were you in on a mission?
—I guess I was in the states somewhere.
872: —Preaching polygamy?
873: —I asked you if you were off on a mission somewhere preaching polygamy?
—Good Lord, what questions you do ask me.
874: —Well were you preaching polygamy, —don’t call on the Lord to assist you in answering these questions, but rely more on yourself.
—It was the law of the church I preached, —not much I didn’t preach polygamy.
875: —You never did preach it did you?
—No, nor practice it much either.
876: —You never practiced it, but just occasionally you slid out at night and browsed around a little, —is that it?
—Yes sir, —just occasionally.
877: —Kind of cut around the corners?
—Yes something like that.
878: —You never did practice polygamy in your life?
879: —Well did you ever preach it from the pulpit in your life?
—I guess not. [handwritten] 880 Q — Well, did you? A — I guess not.
881: —Did you ever hear any one preach polygamy from the pulpit while you were in Nauvoo?
—What is that?
882: —Did you ever hear any one preach the doctrine of polygamy in Nauvoo from the pulpit while you were living there?
—I can’t tell anything now hardly at all, for you have made so much noise that I am stone full.
883: —Well I think you ought to be filled up for the next year and a half, so I guess I will just fill you up?
—Well fill away, —fire away.
884: —Did you ever hear any body while you were living in Nauvoo, preach the doctrine of polygamy from the pulpit?
—I don’t recollect now, and I could not if I was going to be hung on the gallows for it.
885: —Did you ever hear anybody preach it, in public in Nauvoo?
886: —Did you?
—Well there was not much preaching there.
887: —Well did you ever hear anybody preach it in Nauvoo?
—I don’t think I have. I don’t remember anything hardly. I will tell you that when you get to be eighty three years of age, you won’t be able to talk half as much then as you do now.
888: —Well I will tell you Mr.Witness, that when I am eighty three years of age and I am asked a question that I don’t know anything about I will say so?
—Well sir, that is what I say emphatically, and that ought to be the end of it.
889: —Then I am to understand you as saying that you have
not any recollection about anything regarding which you have been testifying? Is that what you say now?
890: Is that the way you want to go down on the record now as testifying?
891: That you have not any recollection about particular fact regarding which you have been testifying here today or the other day you were here?
No sir, what I have stated here and testified to as facts, is facts.
892: Then it is a fact that you married Louisa Beeman to Joseph Smith in 1841, is it?
It was about that time that I married them.
893: About 1841?
Yes sir, – some where along there. Either in 1841 or 1842 or somewhere along there.
894: Now when did you come to Utah?
When did I come to Utah?
895: Yes sir, that is the question?
When did I come to Utah first?
896: Yes sir?
I came with the pioneers in 1847.
897: You were at winter quarters in 1846 and 1847 at Council Bluffs?
Yes sir, that was in 1846.
898: And you were also at a place called Florence further up the river and on the west side of the Missouri?
899: Where was Florence?
Well it was where Omaha is now I understand, or near where Omaha is now some place. I believe it was a little above where Omaha is now.
900: Were you present at a conference held in winter quarters where the church – was re-organized the Brigham Young was elected or selected as the President?
Where was that?
901: That was at Kanesville?
I don’t recollect.
902: That is out of your mind too, is it?
I remember now about that.
903: Well were you present at the conference?
Well I was thinking about that now. I was thinking where that meeting was held.
904: Well it was held at winter quarters in a log school house, or meeting house, or something of that kind?
905: It was built for that purpose?
It was built for a public purpose of some kind.
906: Well that was at winter quarters?
907: That was where the conference was held?
908: Were you present?
Yes sir, I was there.
909: You saw Brigham Young elected President of the church and voted on that subject, did you not?
If it was voted on there I suppose I did, but I swan I can’t tell you for certain.
910: Who was made his counselors? Do you know who were made his counselors?
Well I swan, it bothers me to tell so simple a things as that, for my head is so bungles up I can’t remember anything hardly.
911: Was Heber C. Kimball one?
912: And George A. Smith?
913: They were the counselors to Brigham Young?
914: Before that time Heber and George A. were members of the quorum of the Twelve?
915: Also Brigham Young was a member of the Twelve?
916: Now taking out Heber C. Kimball, George A. Smith and
Brigham Young, that left only six of the original Quorum of Twelve that were there in Council at that conference?
I don’t remember how many there was.
917: Well Lyman was a member of the Twelve at that time was he not?
No sir, not at that time.
918: He had been hadn’t he?
919: He was not there with you?
Well now let me see, where did Lyman strike off?
920: Well he struck off from Nauvoo before you struck off for Council Bluffs, didn’t he?
921: Yes sir, for he was not with you there?
I don’t think he was. I don’t recollect of his being there.
922: Was John E. Page there with you at winter quarters
I don’t knot.
923: Well was the Quorum of Twelve there with you at winter quarters?
There was fractional parts of it there, – the most of them were there.
924: Well was William B. Smith, – the brother of Joseph Smith, – was he there with you?
At winter quarters?
925: Yes sir?
Well now I declare I can’t tell you sir. Oh isn’t it strange that I can’t remember these things.
926: Well now you know he was not there don’t you?
I can’t say.
927: You never saw him there did you?
I don’t think I did.
928: And you never saw Lyman Wight or John E. Page there either, did you, at winter quarters?
I guess not, I guess they got off before we got there. I don’t think they were with us, for they left the church before that.
929: Well now at the death of Joseph Smith there was twelve in the Quorum of Twelve was there not, – it was a full quorum?
I believe so.
930: And Lyman Wight, John E. Page and William B. Smith were three of the members of the Quorum of Twelve were they not at the time of the death of Joseph Smith?
Well I can’t say.
931: Did you not say that they were just now?
I think they were, but I can’t answer that satisfactorily to myself.
932: Well then there was nine of the Quorum of Twelve that went there to winter quarters with you?
I think so, but I don’t know. This is all guess work with me.
933: Well we will let that go in you do not recollect it?
934: Another stake heard from. Now you came here to Salt Lake in Utah Territory in 1848 was it, or was it in 1847?
935: Well that is what I am asking you, – what year was it that you first came here to Utah Territory and landed where Salt Lake City is now?
Well good gracious, how many more times are you going to ask that question, – didn’t I tell you that I got here in ’47. We came across the plains and got here in 1847 some of us, and some of us in 1848 and some more in 1849 and so on, for they have been coming over since that time to this.
936: Well it is not necessary to go over all that, for I simply asked you whether it was in 1847 or 1848 that you came here?
Well it was in 1847 when we first came here, but the President who was there returned and came back here again in 1848. He was one of the pioneers that came out here.
937: You had a president to your church then when you came out here?
Oh hum, –
938: Did you have a president for the church when you came out here?
I can’t tell you.
939: Don’t you remember?
No sir, I can’t tell you, for I ain’t got my pocketbook with me.
940: Well you did not have a president for your church when you left Nauvoo, did you?
941: Have you got your pocketbook how?
I guess not?
942: How long were you here in Utah before you were baptized the second time, – that is, before you were baptized the first time after you came here?
943: Well how long about?
944: Answer the question?
We went right at it right away.
945: You went right at it?
946: As quick as you got here?
947: Baptized for what?
Remission of sins, follies, wickedness, and I don’t know what all.
948: Re-ordained into the church?
949: You were re-ordained a bishop and a high priest, were you not?
950: Why not?
Well I guess that was not necessary.
951: Well were you re-ordained a bishop?
I guess not for it was not necessary.
952: Well were you re-ordained a bishop since you have been in the valley?
I guess not.
953: Were you re-ordained an elder?
Well I might have had confirmed what I had before.
954: A re-baptism or confirmation of what you had before, – is that it?
Yes sir, for we have to come in every once in a while and be re-baptized for our nonsense, and I think a little of the same medicine would do you a lot of good.
955: How many times have you been re-baptized for your nonsense?
Well I am getting into it a good many times. I am going through again as soon as I get through with you fellows, for I know I will need it when I get through, – yes I will need it badly I am sure, and no wonder either.
956: You will feel after you get through here like being baptized again?
Yes sir, I will feel kind of relieved you know, and after I have gone through it won’t do me any harm at all.
957: You will be re-baptized for the remission of your sins?
958: You have committed so many during the taking of your deposition there, that you will feel the necessity of being re-baptized?
Perhaps so. It would not be amiss I think if a pair of us were re-baptized.
959: Well are you going to be re-baptized for yourself or for the rest of us?
I will first attend to my own imperfections and let the rest of you attend to yours or go to Tophet.
960: Than you are going to be re-baptized after giving in your testimony here?
I can’t tell you whether I will or will not. I can’t say that I shall get ready.
961: Well that is your idea now, that you shall be re-baptized when you get through with the taking of your testimony here, and you are discharged?
962: Are you going to have a presbyterian preacher re-baptize you?
I would just as soon and a little rather have the presbyterian church do it as the re-organized church.
963: It would have the same effect?
Oh pshaw, – excuse me for my nonsense.
964: Well you were baptized in Utah here when you got here, into the new and everlasting covenant, were you not?
965: Answer the question, – were you not baptized into the new and everlasting covenant when you came out here to Utah?
I can’t tell. Oh dear me, what questions you do ask a fellow. Is there no end to them?
966: Well weren’t you?
I can’t tell you sir.
967: Who baptized you first when you got here?
I have been baptized so many times that it will take time to look it up.
968: You claimed to be a member of the church from 1832 down to the present time?
Yes sir. That is, I suppose I am for I haven’t look at the record to see if they had cut me off, but I don’t think they have, so I am still on the list.
969: Well now why was it necessary to baptize you so many times?
I suppose I needed it.
970: Was it necessary to keep you in the church?
It was on account of my multitude of imperfections.
971: Well was it not because of the fact that it was a faction of the church that came out west and not the church proper?
972: Was that not the reason, – was not the reason because a faction of the church came west, and not the church, and was that not the reason you were
baptized, – were you not baptized into the faction that came out here to the west under Brigham Young?
973: Was that not the reason? Do you decline to answer that question?
974: Well then answer it?
I was baptized for my many imperfections. I was baptized for my own imperfections and for no one else.
975: And because it was a faction of the church that had come out here and preached a re-baptism of its followers?
976: Answer that question?
No sir. I was baptized for my own imperfections and that is all that I was baptized for. 976 (Second 976 mistakenly listed)
976: Did not the church baptize its members out here?
Oh my gracious, you are at it again. Oh now quit that. What is the use of that?
977: Did not Brigham Young and all the twelve teach it here?
978: The doctrine of re-baptism?
I don’t know the half of what they have done. I never kept track of what they did. Now if I had dinner I don’t know what I could tell you.
979: Well be patient and you will have your dinner perhaps. If you will answer the questions promptly and not try to evade the, and when you don’t know a thing to say you don’t know it. I think I can promise you speedy relief from this examination. Now did you not see Brigham Young re-baptize people after they came out here to this territory, – people who had been baptized into the original church?
I don’t know that I did.
980: Was he not re-baptized himself?
Well I don’t know. It is quite likely he ought to have been if he was not.
981: You say it was quite likely he ought to have been?
982: And all the other members?
Yes sir, and all the other members, and especially these re-organized fellows.
983: You were re-baptized in the reformation and is a consequence you don’t like these re0rganized fellows, do you?
Well I don’t mean that hardly, for I like them and think a good deal of them some times.
984: Were you not abusing Joseph Smith up here at the Hot Springs the other day?
Well I guess not.
985: Will you swear you did not?
I will swear, –
986: Swear to what?
987: Will you swear that you were not abusing Joseph Smith up here at the Hot Springs the other day after you were relieved from the witness stand?
I can’t tell you now.
988: You can’t say what you did say up there the other day after you were on the witness stand?
Oh that talk of yours makes me boozy.
989: It makes you boozy?
Yes sir. –
990: What is it makes you boozy?
So much nonsense, I nev- or heard such a streak of it in my life. They say there is an end to all things some time, but there is no end to your nonsense.
991: That is your opinion?
992: Is there any thing you have been taking that makes it boozy?
993: What is it?
What you have been feeing me.
994: Well what is it, – milk or water?
Milk, – terribly watered though.
995: It has been terribly watered and full of nonsense?
Yes sir, that is right. Oh gracious it beats all I ever heard.
996: You have been having lots of fun out of this thing?
Some, but I don’t think as much as you have been having.
997: What do you mean by the reformation out here in Utah?
Why we people here resolved to live and do better in the future like your people should do, but don’t.
998: Well when you come here first in 1847 you agreed to live and do better didn’t you?
Yes sir, and we did do better for a while, but when we came across such good looking fascinating fellws as you are we can’t do better then. We do better until we came across men like you, and then good bye to our good intentions and efforts.
999: Did you associate with me before 1857?
I could not say.
1000: Did you ever see me before 1857?
I could not say but it seems to me though that I have seen you some where before.
1001: Am I the man that was talking to you in October last?
I can’t ell you.
1002: You cannot tell whether you saw me before 1857 or not, can you?
Well I can’t tell you now where I saw you, but it seems to me that I saw you some please.
1003: But you can’t state where it was?
1004: Now all of you agreed to reform and do better in 1857 and you called that reformation, did you not?
Well if it was reduced to practice and taught, taught, taught, there was not much to it. It was like this, if you reform a dead body and put life into it is all right, but otherwise there is no reformation worked, but in this case there was an undoubet good done to many and others, the reformation, so called, did them no good. Now that was the way it was.
1005: Well hold on, – you have said enough, -if you want your dinner keep close and don’t fly that track that way. 1857 is the time you refer to as the “reformation”?
I don’t know about that. Let us see. “1857”
1006: Well that is the time you had your reformation and you were all baptized the second time were you not?
Well it was the second time or the third time, I don’t know which.
1007: Do you recollect the time that Brigham divorced all the wives, – released all the wives in the territory, and divorced them from their husbands?
1008: Do you remember that?
I don’t recall it.
1009: Did he not preach it from the square over here where the temple now is?
I could not tell you anything about what he preached or did not preach at all.
1010: Well, did he not release them all?
All the women?
1011: Yes, sir.
1012: You know that–how do you know it?
Well, he did not get mine.
1013: How long–how far have you lived from Salt Lake City since you have been here?
About ten miles.
1014: You attend church here every Sunday?
1015: How often do you attend church here?
Not very often.
1016: Well, about how often?
Well, not once in a coon’s age.
1017: Do you not come here to church?
No sir, we don’t have to. We have our own place of meeting and don’t have to come here unless we want to do so.
1018: Well, was it not taught there where you lived that all the women in the territory were to be released from their husbands on a certain day?
1019: Do you say that was not taught?
I say I never heard of any such nonsense as that in my life.
1020: Did you not hear that Brigham Young held the power to divorce people?
1021: Now, when you were coming from Winter Quarters out here, when you got to “South Pass”–you know where that is?
Well, I have heard something about South Pass.
1022: Well, when you got there on your way out to Sale Lake, was there an organization of the Twelve there convened into a court for the purpose of decreeing divorces?
1023: Answer ths question.
I don’t know anything about it at all. If there was any such a thing as that there, I don’t know anything about it.
1024: And you said, I believe, that you had never heard of Brigham Young holding court for the purpose of giving divorces?
No sir, I never heard of that nonsense.
1025: Well, regarding South Pass–you were there, were you not?
I don’t know. I can’t tell you now, for I don’t remember.
1026: You were with the company that came out here?
With the company–Good Lord, what next? What have I done that I should have this imposed upon me?
1027: You were with that company that came out here in 1847?
Yes, yes, yes, of course I was.
1028: Well, did you not stop on the way at South Pass, and did not the Twelve enter themselves into a court and decree divorces there?
I tell you, I don’t know anytihng about it at all.
1029: Well now, when you were living in Nauvoo during the lifetime o Joseph Smith, was it the doctrine of the church at that time that Joseph
Smith could grant divorces?
1030: Did you ever hear it before his death, or did he teach before his death that he could grant divorces?
1031: What is your answer?
No I don’t know anything about it.
1032: You don’t know anything about that?
1033: Did you ever know him to divorce anybody?
No sir, he never came about me with anything of the kind.
1034: Do you know of his ever coming to any body else with anything of the kind?
No sir. 1035 (Written as the first 1036)
1034: How many times have you been married?
How many times have I been married?
1036: Yes sir, that is the question I asked you?
Well by George you would have to look at the records to tell that.
1037: Well what was your first wife’s name, – the one you married in Nauvoo?
I did not marry my first wife in Nauvoo, – I married her down east, –
1038: Well what was her name?
Her maiden name was Adeline Beeman.
1039: Who was the first one?
Well she lies up here in the buryilg ground.
1040: You mean that she is buried there?
1041: Well I did not ask you where she was lying, or where she was buried, – I asked you who was your first wife?
Well she was.
1042: Adeline Beeman?
1043: Who was the next one?
I don’t think that is any of your business sir.
1044: Who was the third one?
Well now let me see, – I will have to search the record to get them in rotation.
1045: Well search the records and tell us who they were and the order in which you married them?
1046: What was the second one’s name?
Well I can’t tell you now for I am so dizzy.
1047: Well did you marry her while your first wife was living?
1048: Do you say now that you cannot tell all their names?
All of what?
1049: Do you say now that you can’t tell all of your wives’ names? Do you?
1050: Well what do you say about it?
Well I might tell some of them.
1051: Well tell me the names of all the ones that you can remember?
1052: I am not asking you if you live with them now? I am not asking you anything of the kind, – I am simply asking you to give us the names of all the wives you have married at various times, or as many of them as you can remember?
I don’t think I can tell.
1053: Can’t you tell the names of some of them?
I think not.
1054: Do you swear that you can’t tell?
I swear that I won’t tell.
Just for your damned nonsense.
1056: And elder in the church swearing in court?
Yes, and I don’t know who wouldn’t swear after such a tornado of nonsense poured in.
1057: You think we haven’t got any rights here?
1058: Yes sir.
I hope you have.
1059: Then why are you swearing?
Because I feel indignant.
1060: Why did you say it was none of my darned business if you think we have any rights?
Because you are so nonsensical.
1061: Will you tell me the names of your wives now?
No sir. I won’t do it.
Just because I won’t.
1063: Because it is none of my “damned business”?
1064: Will you tell me the time you married the second one?
1065: Have many wives have you had?
I can’t begin to count them up.
1066: Have you had as many as fifteen, and were you sealed to all of them for the time and eternity too?
Oh no, – such nonsense.
1067: Have you ever been divorced from any of them?
1068: Have you ever been divorced from any of them?
There is four or five of them lying up here in the graveyard, and perhaps that is divorcing.
1069: Well that is not the kind of divorce contemplated in my question, – answer the question?
1070: Were all of these four or five that are lying up here in the grave yard married to you at the same time?
1071: Have you ever had two wives living at the same time?
1072: Will you answer that question? Will you answer that?
I have no objection.
1073: Well answer it then?
What is it, – put is again.
1074: Have you ever had two wives living at the same time?
1075: Have you ever had more than two wives living at the same time?
That is none of your business.
1076: And so you refuse to answer that question also?
1077: Now will you answer and tell us the date that you took your first plural wife?
I can’t tell you the date.
1078: Was it in 1845 when you lived in Nauvoo? Will you answer that?
I can’t tell.
1079: Do you say you cannot tell that for the reason you don’t recollect it, or is it for the reason that you do not want to tell it?
I can’t tell it for the dates bother me so.
1080: Well tell me about what year it was as near as you can remember? Was it in 1845?
I say I can’t tell it for I don’t remember.
1081: Were you married in that temple at Nauvoo? Come answer the question?
1082: Were you married in the temple at Nauvoo, or do you decline to answer that question? Do you decline to answer? Come, say something for I am getting hungry myself, and want my dinner?
Well I don’t want to answer these questions.
1083: Why do you not want to answer them? Is it because it might tend to criminate you?
Yes sir, – it might.
1084: Did you ever take any endowments in Nauvoo?
1085: Will you answer that question?
1086: Why not?
It is an improper question.
1087: Did you ever enter into a proxy marriage?
1088: You did not?
No sir, and I don’t know anything about proxies.
1089: You don’t know anything about proxies that you know of.
1090: Well I want to ask you another question, and it is this, – did you ever marry a person in which you agreed to take care of them for time, and surrender them to somebody else in eternity? Did you?
Yes sir. I am half and half sick and I ought to be in bed instead of where I am.
1091: You ought to be in bed you say? Now what were you doing yesterday?
I was in bed most of the day.
1092: Were you not down here yesterday?
No sir, I was not down town yesterday.
1093: You agreed the day before yesterday when you weren’t dismissed to be here again yesterday morning, did you?
1094: And you were out here yesterday attending to your work as usual?
No sir I was not. I don’t pretend to attend to a darned thing.
1095: Do you preach any now?
No sir, not much.
1096: That means that you preach some?
Well a little.
1097: Do you say you don’t preach a “darned bit”?
No sir, not much.
1098: You do not preach much, but you are still an elder and an high priest in this church our here are you not? Are you an elder and an high priest? Don’t you want to answer that question too?
1099: Well it don’t hurt you to answer it again, – are you an elder and an high priest?
1100: Are you a bishop now?
No sir. I ain’t although they put the trimmings on it and say “bishop Noble” when they are speaking to me, but I ain’t a bishop now. It is simply because I was a bishop once o and when a man is once in an office of that kind they daub the title on to him always after that. When they speak to me it is “well bishop, how are you”, – that is the way they all style me.
1101: That is all.