63 – John Hawley

1: State your name to the reporter?
My name is John Hawley.

2: What is your age Mr Hawley?
I was sixty six the fourth day of last March.

3: You were sixty six years of age the fourth day of March of this year, – 1892?
Yes sir.

4: Where do you reside at the present time Mr Hawley?
In the state of Missouri.

5: Well what is your address, – the place where you reside more specifically?
I reside at Sheridan, Worth County, in this state.

6: In Worth County Missouri, you reside, – that is your place of residence?
Yes sir, at Sheridan, Worth County, Missouri.

7: Have you been identified in any way with the church of Latter Day Saints?
Yes sir.

8: Are you a member of that organization at the present time?
Yes sir.

9: What is the title of the church of which you at the present time are a member?
The Re-organized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

10: How long have you been a member of that organization?
Well I was baptized right across the river here in the year of ’37?

11: You were baptized in the year 1837?
Yes sir.

12: Into the church of which you are now a member?
Yes sir.

13: By whom where you baptized, if you remember?
By William O. Clarke.

14: Who was William O. Clark?
He was an elder in the church at the time.

15: He was an elder in the church at that time, – in ’37?
Yes sir he was an elder in the church at an early date.

16: Where were you baptized did you say?
Well it was over across the river here in Clay County I think.

17: Well at what place across the river were you baptized?
Well it was in the waters of Crooked River, but I could not state what branch of Crooked river it was, but it was in some of the waters of that stream that I was baptized. I was mistaken, it was in Ray County and not Clay County that I was baptized and it was in some of the branches of Crooked river.

18: That was in 1837?
Yes sir.

19: Was there a church organization there at that time?
A church organization did you say?

20: Yes sir?
There was not. There was not at that time any particular branch organization right there at that place, but there was close by where I lived.

21: Then there was an organization of the church in the way of branch organization close to where you lived?
Yes sir.

22: Did you attend it?
Yes sir.

23: What position, if any, did you hold in the church?
AT that time do you mean?

24: Yes sir, at that time, or subsequent to that time?
Well subsequent to that time I was ordained a teacher in the church.

25: At what time was it that you were ordained a teacher in the church?
Well it was about 1842 that I was ordained a teacher in the church. If I am not greatly mistaken it was about 1842.

26: At what place was it that you were ordained an teacher in the church?
That was at Ambrosia.

27: Where is Ambrosia?
It is in Lee County, Iowa, about four miles from Montrose.

28: Then you were ordained a teacher at a place called Ambrosia?
Yes sir, that is what it was called at that time. I don’t know what it is called now. It first went by the name of my father, and was called “Hawley’s Grove”, but afterwards it took the name of Ambrosia.

29: How far from Nauvoo was it?
Well I should judge it was about six miles over across the river in Iowa, from Nauvoo. Nauvoo you know was in Illinois, and Ambrosia was in Iowa, – across the river from Nauvoo out in the country a ways. Now let us see, – it was about four and half miles from Montrose about, – yes sir it was about six miles from Nauvoo.

30: Was there an organization of the church at that place?
Yes sir.

31: Who was at the head of the organization at that place?
Well it was John Smith.

32: Who was John Smith?
Well it was a cousin I think of the first Joseph Smith. I don’t know that positively, but I think that is what he was. I would not be positive about that.

33: Do you mean Joseph the Seer?
Yes sir.

34: Well how long did that organization continue at that place?
Well it continued there until ’33, -’43 I mean, and then from there it moved to what was called Zarah Hemlah, just across close to Montrose.

35: In Missouri?
No sir, still in Iowa, it was in Iowa all the time.

36: Did you pursoe your occupation of a teacher in the church?
Yes sir.

37: For what length of time did you pursue that occupation?
Of teacher?

38: Yes sir?
Well I pursued that occupation for six or seven years, and then I received an higher ordination, I followed it until I received an higher ordination.

39: What higher ordination did you receive?
I received my ordination as an elder.

40: What higher ordination did you receive?
That was in 1848?

41: In 1848?
Yes sir.

42: At what place was that?
That was in Texas.

43: Where abouts in Texas?
Well it was, – I disremember the County.

44: Well where abouts in Texas was it, – in what part of Texas was it?
Well as I say I disremember the county, but it was about the central part of the state, – about eighty miles from the capital. It was about eighty miles from Austin the capital.

45: It was about eighty miles from Austin?
Yes sir.

46: How far about was it from San Antonio?
About sixty five miles I think.

47: Was there an organization of the church there?
Yes sir.

48: Who was at the head of the organization there?
Well Lyman Wight was.

49: Lyman Wight was at the head of that organization there?
Yes sir.

50: Who was Lyman Wight?
He was one of the Twelve Apostles.

51: Was he one of the original Twelve?
Yes sir. He became one of the Twelve to fill a vacancy in old Joseph’s day.

52: Well now this you say was in Texas?
Yes sir.

53: Well how long did you remain there?
I remained there about, – Well it was a few years, – four or five I think.

54: Well about when was it you left there, if at all?
Well I remained there until about 1853. Yes sir it was in 1853 that I left there if I ain’t greatly mistaken.

55: Was the organization kept up through that time?
Where?

56: There at that place in Texas where you were?
Yes sir.

57: Well when you left that point in Texas, where did you go?
Well I came North, – I came to the Cherokee Nation, and wintered there.

58: In what year was that?
That was in 1858.

59: What year, – how long did you remain there?
I remained there until 1856.

60: Then were did you go when you left that point?
Then I went to Utah.

61: At what time?
Did I go to Utah?

62: Yes sir?
Well it was in the summer of 1856.

63: No do you remember the time and the circumstances attending the death of Joseph the Martyr?
Yes sir.

64: Where were you at that time?
I was in Wisconsin.

65: What were you doing in Wisconsin at that time?
My father went there with a company in which was Lyman Wight and George Miller, for the purpose of obtaining lumber.

66: For what did you say you went to Wisconsin?
For the purpose of obtaining lumber for the purpose of finishing up the temple, and for the building of the temple at Nauvoo, and we labored there until it 1845 when we brought the raft of lumber down the river to Nauvoo.

67: What was it you brought down to Nauvoo?
It was a raft of lumber and shingles to finish up that building.

68: Where were you when you heard of the death of Joseph Smith?
I was in Wisconsin.

69: You were at Wisconsin on this lumber hunting expedition at the time you heard of the death of Joseph?
Yes sir.

70: And still you brought the lumber down the rive?
Yes sir. That did not deter us, – we went right ahead and finished up our labors, and brought the lumber raft down the next spring.

71: The next spring after the death of Joseph Smith?
Yes sir.

72: That would be in the spring of 1845?
Yes sir. It was the next spring after the death of Joseph.

73: The what did you do on your return?
Then we remained a short time in Nauvoo, and went back to Wisconsin again.

74: For what purpose did you go to Wisconsin again?
Well in the seer’s day there was a commission given to Lyman Wight and George Miller to take the company that I was one of, to go to Texas and there to organize an organization, and build up the kingdom in that land, and so w went back to Wisconsin and remained there through the winter.

75: Now what time was it when you went back to Wisconsin?
Well it was the summer of 1845 that we went back there again. No it was in the fall of 1845.

76: Were you acquainted with all the requirements of the church at that time, and its doctrine?
Yes sir I think I was, as much so as any one of my age could be, or was at that time. I was acquainted with the teachings of the church an the requirements of its officers.

77: What was the teachings of your church if any, in reference to the matter or question of endowments, at the time that you were an officer in it?
Well there was nothing to it. Thee was no teachings of endowments to my knowledge at any time until after we got into Texas. That was the first time I ever knew anything about endowments, and there was then.

78: Well what was it then?
Then Lyman Wight taught us something about endowments.

79: Lyman Wight was the first person that taught any thing about endowments according to your recollection
Yes sir.

80: Well what did he teach you then?
He taught us that it was needful for men and women to be sealed together, or to each other, in order to enjoy each others society in eternity. That is he taught that husband and wife were to be sealed together in order to enjoy each other’s society in eternity. Lyman Wight was the first person I ever heard teach that, and that was what he taught.

81: That is what he taught you?
Yes sir that is one of the things he taught us.

82: Now what was the difference between that sealing and the ordinary ceremony of marriage?
Well there was no particular difference, only it was done as we understood it by the power of the priesthood. It was used instead of the legal form of marriage, and at time we looked upon it as being more binding for eternity than the other form of marriage.

83: One was performed through the requirements of the law, and the other through the requirements of the spiritual law, -is that it?
Yes sir, that was his understanding so he said.

84: Did you pass through this ceremony?
Yes sir.

85: When were you married?
When was I married?

86: Yes sir?
I was married in 1851.

87: Was it a practice that was universally followed in Texas by all those who claimed to be members of that church there?
Yes sir, – pretty much all of them there received that endowment.

88: How did they receive it, – at whose hands?
Pretty much all of them received that endowment at the hands of Lyman Wight or under his administration.

89: That was in Texas?
Yes sir, while we were in Texas.

90: Lyman Wight I believe you stated was the leader of the organization there in Texas?
Yes sir.

91: How did Lyman Wight come to become the head of the church there in Texas?
Well from the fact that we understood he had a mission given him by Joseph the Seer to go down there to Texas, and preach the gospel to that people and raise up the church.

92: When was that appointment made by the Seer with reference to the time of his death?
With reference to the time of the seer’s death?

93: Yes sir?
Well that was in 1848.

94: That he received his mission, – that was the time that Lyman Wight received his commission?
Yes sir. That is the statement he gave to us.

95: Who made the statement to you?
Lyman Wight, – he made the statement to us that his mission was given him in 1843.

96: When did he make that statement?
Lyman Wight made that statement to us in the winter of 1843, while we were in Wisconsin.

97: Do you know who composed the Twelve at the time Lyman Wight was in Texas?
I don’t know as I could ennumerate all of them but there was Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Williards Richards, George A. Smith and Orson and Parley Pratt, Wilford Woodruf and Orson Hyde.

98: Was William Smith also one of the Twelve at that time?
I don’t remember whether he was or not at that time. Yes I remember now William Smith at that time was one of the Twelve.

99: Where did they reside at that time?
The Twelve?

100: Yes sir, – where did they respectively reside at that time, if you know? The twelve I mean.
Well sir in 1848 they were scattered around over a good deal of territory at that time. They were scattered abroad here and there, over a good deal of territory.

101: What year are you speaking of?
In 1848. At that time they were scattered around a good deal, but the most of them I think were in Utah. Most of them had gone to Utah with the branch of the church that went there.

102: Well did they all go to Utah?
No sir.

103: What year was it that you took the endowments in Texas?
Well that was in the year 1848.

104: Now I have asked you who at that time composed the Twelve, and you have named off the principle ones, as you remember them?
Yes sir. I have named the ones I remember.

105: Well now I will ask you where they resided respectively at that time, if you know?
Well I could now answer that question any more than what was reported. I was not a witness of their being at any place at all only from Lyman Wight, although we often heard where they were.

106: Had any of them at that time you speak of gone to Salt Lake City?
Yes sir.

107: How many of them?
Well I don’t believe I can state that, but there was quite a large emigration of the members of the church went there in 1847 and some of the Twelve went with them of course.

108: What year did you say it was they went to Utah?
I said there was a large emigration went there in 1847, – that was the time that I think most of them went there.

109: Do you know what ones of the Twelve went there at that time?
Well I have senn them there quite a nymber of times after that, most all of them were there after that I know. I think that most all of them went there with the exception of William Smith and Lyman Wight, – they did not go – there, but I think most all of the rest went there.

110: John E. Page did not go there did he?
No sir, – I don’t remember of seeing him there either. I dis-remember, – no he did not go there either, but all most all of the rest of them went there to Salt Lake with Brigham.

111: Now you said you were at Salk Lake also at one time.
Yes sir I went there after I left Texas.

112: What year did you go there?
I went there in 1856.

113: From what place did you go to Salt Lake?
I said a moment ago that I went there after I left Texas, but that was an error for I went from Texas to the Indian Territory, and stayed there a while and then I went from the Indian Territory to Salt Lake. I went to Salt Lake from the Cherokee Nation.

114: Did you identify yourself with the church there in Salt Lake?
Yes sir.

115: You identified yourself with the church organization there?
Yes sir.

116: Did your wife go with you also?
To Utah?

117: Yes sir?
Yes sir.

118: Did you, or did you not take an endowment there?
Yes sir I did.

119: Was it or was it not the same kind of an endowment you took under Lyman Wight’s administration?
No sir it was not.

120: You say they were not the same, – that is the endowment you took in Utah was not the same as the endowment you took under Lyman Wight?
No sir, they were not the same.

121: Well now will you be kind enough to tell in what respect they were different?
Well they differed in the manner of: the sealing and in the manner of conferring the endowment.

122: In what respect did they differ?
Well Lyman Wight only gave the endowment in the respect of the washing of the feet, and they gave the endowment in Utah by washing, annointing, and then there was an oath taken in Utah to avenge the blood of the prophet.

123: That was a part of the endowment in Utah?
Yes sir, that was a part of the endowment that was given in Salt Lake City.

124: Where the endowments in Salt Lake City given?
In the endowment house, as they called it.

125: Was it arranged specially for the conferrring of these endowments?
Yes sir.

126: Was it reserved for that service entirely?
Yes sir.

127: Now you have stated that the endowment that Wight gave was the washing of the feet and the sealing of a man’s wife to him for eternity?
Yes sir.

128: That part of it that referred to a man’s wife was sealing for eternity?
Yes sir. 129 (this number is missing)

130: Well now, what constituted that sealing?
Well now I can’t repeat that ceremony, but it was sealing in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, for time as well as eternity.

131: That was all there was to it?
Yes sir.

132: Now were there any other obligations beyond it?
No there was nothing more, any more than sealing for time and eternity. That was all there was to it.

133: It related purely to matrimonial affairs?
Yes sir.

134: And that was all the endowment that Wight gave the people?
Yes sir, that was all the endowment that he gave us.

135: Well now when did you first hear of endowments being practiced in the church?
 

136: Answer the question?
1848 was the first time I heard of it.

137: That was after the death of Joseph Smith, the Seer?
Certainly. He died in 1844 and this was in 1848.

138: Where were you at that time?
AT the time of the death of the prophet?

139: No sir, – at the time that you first heard of the endowments?
I was in Texas.

140: Well while you were a resident of Nauvoo did you hear or know anything about it at that time?
No sir.

141: Had you ever heard of it at that time that you were a resident of Nauvoo or before the time that it was revealed to you by Lyman Wight in Texas?
No sir, no further than I heard there was an endowment of the Spirit at Kirtland. That was in ’35 as I understood it, but I had never heard anything about its being practiced in Nauvoo.

142: What was the endowment that you heard of being practiced in Kirtland?
Well the first endowment was the washing of feet, and the endowment with power, that elders might go forth with great power to preach the word.

143: That was an endowment that was given to whom?
To the elders.

144: So the endowment at Kirtland was given to the elders?
Yes sir, that was my understanding.

145: Through the holy spirit?
Yes sir.

146: Then afterwards the next you heard of it was through Lyman Wight in Texas?
Yes sir.

147: Where it was applied to the marriage relation?
Yes sir.

148: Well then you went to Salt Lake City, or to Utah, and there you found the ordinance as it is called of endowments in force only with a greatly extended application?
Yes sir.

149: Were the endowments in Texas conferred secretly?
No sir, there was nothing secret about it. Not in the endowments, – they were not secret under Wight.

150: They were conducted openly?
Yes sir, openly, and all had the priveledge of seeing them performed. Every one could go who felt like going.

151: Well now was that the case in Salt Lake city?
No sir.

152: What was the difference?
In Salt Lake City it was done secretly and no one was permitted to see it only the officers, and the ones taking the endowments.

153: No one was admitted only the participants, and those officiating?
No sir.

154: Were any people present in Salt Lake City at the conferring of the endowments, and those officiating?
No sir, that is what I state before.

155: Why was that the case?
Why simply because no one else had any business there, and they were not permitted to be there. Now that was the rule at the time I received mine at least, but of course I don’t know what happened afterwards.

156: That was the rule at the time you received your endowments?
Yes sir.

157: Who performed the ceremony at the time you received your endowments?
Well Wilford Woodruf he did the annointing and washing, and Brigham Young he did the sealing. They both had a hand in it.

158: Well at the time you received them in Texas I am talking about?
Well Lyman Wight and my father, —Lyman Wight did the sealing, and my father was an high priest in the church in Old Joseph’s time, and he done the washing of the feet and annointing of the head.

159: That is who performed the ceremony at the time you received your endowments in Texas?
Yes sir.

160: Now who performed the ceremonies at the time that you received your endowments in Salt Lake City?
Well that is what I told you.

161: Wilford Woodruf and Brigham Young, —is that who you said conferred the endowments?
Yes sir, between them they did.

162: That was at the time the endowments were conferred upon your self and Wight?
Yes sir, Wilford Woodruf did the annointing and washing, and Brigham Young the sealing.

163: Were you and your wife both present at the same time?
We were in different rooms while we were washing and annointing, but when we were sealed we were together.

164: When you were sealed you were together?
Yes sir

165: But when you were washed and annointed you were not together?
No sir, that is the way it was, when we were washed and annointed we were seperated, but when we were sealed we were together.

166: How was it when you were endowed in Texas with reference to your being seperated then?
No sir we were not seperated there but it was only the washing of the feet there.

167: What was your father’s full name?
Pierce Hawley.

168: Pierce Hawley?
Yes sir.

169: Where did he live at that time?
At what time?

170: At the time of this endowment in Texas?
He lived right there with the company in a little town.

171: That was in Texas?
Yes sir.

172: Did you ever attend church at Nauvoo?
Oh yes, —you mean church services?

173: Yes sir?
Yes sir, I have attended them many a time.

174: You did?
Yes sir, my father lived there right near Montrose, that was in Iowa, but we often went over on the Sabbath to Nauvoo and attended church.

175: Well now at the time you were a teacher, and attended church at Nauvoo was there any such a thing then taught or practiced as endowments, or the endowment you have spoken of?
No sir.

176: There was not?
No sir. I heard nothing of that kind taught at all there at Nauvoo.

177: When was it that you attended church meeting at Nauvoo?
That was from 1841 to 1844 that we attended these church services or meetings there at Nauvoo. It was while we lived over at Zarah Hemlah near Montrose.

178: It was during the years from 1841 to 1844 that you went there to meetings?
Yes sir, we often went over during that period.

179: If there was any such a thing practiced as the endowments such as you have spoken of in the church there at Nauvoo during this period from 1841 to 1844, did you ever hear of it?
No sir I never did, and I don’t think there was.

180: It was in 1848 that you first heard of it?
Yes sir.

181: You never heard of any thing of the kind until 1848?
No sir.

182: Now in Salt Lake City was there any such a thing known as the ordinance of the endowment being administered to any one who had not been joined in matrimony as an husband and wife?
I could not tell you. I only know positively what I saw and experienced myself, and I don’t know positively the limitations they put on the administration of that ordinance. I could not tell you how that was for at the time I went to Utah I heard of a good many things being taught and practiced there, but at the time I was in Texas and the Indian Territory, of course I don’t know anything about what was going on in Utah.

183: Well I am talking now about what was going on in Utah at the time you were there, – at the time that you were endowed?
Well I know something about what went on there after I got there of course.

184: In reference to the endowments I mean?
Yes sir.

185: Well I will repeat my question, – read the question to the witness. The Notary hereupon reads to the witness question number “182”, as follows, – “Now in Salt Lake City, was there any such a thing known as the ordinance of the endowment being administered to any one, who had not been joined in matrimony, as husband and wife?
Yes sir there was several went through and got their endowments, – single men I mean.

186: They were single men?
Yes sir.

187: Un-married men?
Yes sir.

188: Well then what had that to do with sealing for eternity, – husband to wife, and wife to husband?
What had they to do with that?

189: Yes sir?
They did not receive that ordinance. That ordinance was not administered to them. They were appointed and when they got their wives if they were annointed and when they got their wives if they ever did get them, then they got the rest of the endowment then.

190: Well that was the way it was done in Utah?
Yes sir, that is the way.

191: Well was the same thing practiced in Texas with reference to single men?
No sir, not to my knowledge.

192: Or single women either?
No sir, not that I ever heard of.

193: In Texas it was just confined exclusively to husband and wife?
Yes sir, to husband and wife.

194: How long did you remain in Utah?
I went there in 1856 and came away in 1870.

195: You went there in 1856?
Yes sir.

196: And came away in 1870?
Yes sir.

197: You were there fourteen years?
Yes sir, – about that time.

198: When did you first hear of the practice of polygamy or its being practiced in the Mormon church?
The first indications that ever came to my knowledge was when, – was in 1845.

199: In 1845 did you say?
Yes sir. It was in Wisconsin.

200: That was in Wisconsin?
Yes sir.

201: What time, – you were in Wisconsin twice, and which of these times was it?
It was after we moved there the second time, – after we went back there the second time from Nauvoo.

202: That was where you first heard of polygamy or plurality of wives?
Yes sir.

203: At what place in Wisconsin was that?
Wait a moment and I will tell you, – (witness reflects) it was at Prairie LaCrosse.

204: Was that Wisconsin then?
Yes sir.

205: Was there an organization there at that time, a church organization?
Yes sir.

206: What was the organization?
Well Lyman Wight was there with his little band of saints.

207: Lyman Wight was the head of the organization of the church there at that time?
Yes sir.

208: Did he go from Texas there?
No sir.

209: Where did he go from to that place?
He went from Nauvoo to Wisconsin.

210: Oh yes, and from Wisconsin he went to Texas?
Yes sir.

211: And his organization went with him?
Yes sir, – most of them did.

212: Where were you when you first heard of the practice of polygamy at LaCrosse?
Well I don’t know that we were just there. We were on the move at the time. It was in the summer of 1845 and we were on the move for Texas, and Lyman had performed the ceremony we understood afterwards, and had sealed a young lady with us to a man that had another wife. Lyman Wight had just done it a short time before that. I know this is so for at the time I was paying my regards to the young lady myself, and I did not know for some time that she was another mans wife. I did not know that until I found it out afterwards. We were on the move for Texas at the time and when we got down about to Davenport, there was where I came into the possession of the knowledge that she was another mans wife, and of course I dropped her might quick. Now that was the first intimation that I had that there was anything of the kind practiced, – for that was the first case of spiritual marriage that ever came to my knowledge.

213: Now that you understood to have been a spiritual marriage?
Yes sir, – spiritual wife marriage as it is termed.

214: Well now is it a necessary and logical sequence, if they were spiritually married that they would practice polygamy?
No sir. They were spiritually united, they said that they were in polygamy, as well as those that were not (???)). The understanding was that they would enjoy the same glory as the others, but the ones that had more wives would enjoy a greater portion of it.

215: The man that had more than one spirituan wife would enjoy a greater measure of glory than the man would that had only one?
Yes sir.

216: Well do you mean spiritual, or other wise? Joined Spiritually or other wise?
They were to enjoy the glory hereafter, – the glory which was in eternity would be greater.

217: Well do you mean that would be applicable if they practiced polygamy?
Yes sir.

218: How do you know that?
Well that is what Lyman Wight told us, that is what he taught us.

219: Did he teach in in Texas?
Yes sir.

220: Did he practice it there?
Yes sir.

221: No, if they were prior, -if they referred to a time prior to 1844 you would”.
 

222: According to your understanding who was it first taught and practiced polygamy in the Mormon church?
Lyman Wight.

223: Did you know Joseph Smith the Seer?
Yes sir I was pretty well acquainted with him.

224: When did you become acquainted with him, -during that period of time were you acquainted with him?
Well I was pretty well acquainted with him from ’38 to 1843. I was acquainted with him pretty well during that time.

225: Were you at Nauvoo when he was killed?
No sir I Was absent in Wisconsin at that time on that lumber expedition and I did not return from the expedition, until after 1844.

226: When did you say you were ordained a teacher?
I was ordained a teacher in 1842.

227: Well now if polygamy had been taught and practiced in the church at that time in Nauvoo or any where else, would you have been likely to have heard of it?
Yes sir, I think I would”.

228: Would you have been likely to have heard of it?
I think so. Now I have my reasons for thinking so and they are these. My father was one of the first elders in the church, and if he had heard of any such a thing I think I think he would have said something about it and we would all have heard about it.

229: And you say you did not hear of it, -that is of the teaching or practice of polygamy prior to the death of Joseph the Seer?
No sir.

230: Did you ever know of Joseph the seer teaching, preaching or practicing polygamy?
I never did. No sir, never.

231: That is all, -no it is not either, _ I have another question to ask you, and it is this, -Did you ever hear of any one else during the life tie of Joseph Smith teaching or practicing polygamy?
No sir, the first I heard of it was in 1845, and I never heard of it before that time by any body.

232: I now hand you plaintiffs exhibit “D”, on the tile page of which appears the following, -“A few choice examples of Mormon practices and sermons”, and I will ask you whether or not you recognize the cuts of the garments and implements, contained within the first 8 pages, as being of the character and description used in the ordinances of the endowments at the time you were endowed?
In Texas do you mean?

233: No sir I ask you if you recognize them as the garments and emplements that were used in the endowment ceremony at the time that you were endowed at Salt Lake?
I have not used them or seen them since 1870 but I recognize this garment on the first page there. I recognize this garment on the first page here, as being the complete garment with sleeves and dress and all.

234: You recognize that garment on the first page?
Yes sir.

235: As being the same as the garment that was used in the endowment house at Salt Lake at the time you received your endowments there?
Yes sir.

236: I will ask you if you – recognize the aprons and the emblems on the aprons as shown on page two of the exhibit?
Yes sir I recognize it.

237: Is there anything peculiar about it that brings it back to your recollection?
Yes sir, I remember the leaves there on the apron. I remember that sir very well. Yes sir, that was the form of the apron worn.

238: That was used at the time of the endowment at Salt Lake?
Yes sir.

239: At that time, at what particular stage of the game is it used?
At the time of sealing it is used.

240: Now I will ask you if you recognize the diagram showing the endowment house with compartments, as indicated on pages four and five.
Well I don’t know that I can recognize the building with all its forms and compartments, but still I remember that it had a good many departments, a great many departments.

241: Did it have a reception room?
Yes sir.

242: Did it have a stair way to the veil?
Yes sir. It had a very small stairway. It was all pretty much on the ground though.

243: Did it have dressing rooms?
Yes sir.

244: And washing rooms?
Yes sir.

245: And I believe you stated there was a reception room?
Yes sir.

246: Was there a prayer circle?
Yes sir. – There was a prayer circle.

247: And an altar?
Yes sir.

248: Did it have this square room here, marked “Peter”, “John”, “James”, , “altar”, and “world”?
Well this is intended to represent the three apostles, Peter John and James, is it not?

249: “Peter”, John and “James”, it is there?
Well that is right.

250: What did that mean to represent?
It represented the Melchisedical priesthood that they held.

251: Well now I have here marked. I see on the drawing that is designated at the number four, – that that point is designated as the “Garden of Eden”. Now what, if anything, do you know about that compartment, and what was it used for, if anything.
The garden of Eden part of it was more fully practiced and carried out when I received my endowments. When I received mine there was only an offering made, and the ones it was offered to would receive it, and we expected that for accepting it they would be cast out as a representation of the truth.

252: Did you mean that as “accept” or “except”?
“Accept”

253: “Accept” what?
Accept the fruit that would be offered to them. I mean the ones that would partake or accept of the fruit would be cast out as Adam was. That would be done, and the man would be cast out, and then you would go out with your wife.

254: You would both be cast out?
Yes sir.

255: Both the man and the woman?
Yes sir.

256: Now there is another drawing indicating a room which is entitled Heaven?
Yes sir.

257: And here id the “marriage register table”?
Well I suppose that is where the sealing took place before the altar. That was the altar where we were all sealed for time and and eternity,-the jumping off place so to speack,-that is what they called it.

258: Called what?
They called the altar where they were sealed the “jumping off” place,-that was in the last room, and was the last act about.

259: Well what is the room below it with the square and compass marked “instruction room”,-what was done there?
Well the name indicates what is was. It was a room that we received general instruction in.

260: Of what did instruction consist?
It consisted of the garments and robes, and instructing people how to wear them,-the under garments to-be worn continually, and the robe that was warn at the time of the prayer circle was to be the same as the one that you were to be buried in.

261: How is that?
If you died you were to be buried in a robe like the one we wore at the time we were sealed.

262: You do not call that a robe?
No sir.

263: What do you call that?
That is a garment.

264: I mean this one on page one?
No sir. That is not a robe,-that is a garment.

265: In what manner was the robe constructed?
I don’t know that I would be able to explain that.

266: Do you recognize the drawing on page six of the exhibit as a re-production of the robe that was worn on that occasion?
Yes sir for I remember the bows here on the side. That is the robe I recognized it, for it was a rove that came down over you shoulder and down that way, and had a bandage across.

267: Where was that worn?
I recognize that as the robe that was worn out side the garments.

268: On page seven I find a representation of a woman’s cap, a moccasin, and a man’s cap?
Yes sir.

269: do you recognize these as any part of the paraphenalia that was used on that occasion?
Yes sir.

270: When are they used?
At the time of the sealing there were worn.

271: Now I will ask you whether any of these which you have seen,-these re-productions of robes and garments and emblems that I have shown you, and which you have testified about, were used in the endowments in Texas under Wight?
We had a garment in Texas, but it was not like any of these. The robe was nearer like the robe used in Utah, but it was not exactly like it, but the garment was not like the garment in Utah at all.

272: Was that the only thing that was used in Wight’s endowment?
He had a robe.

273: Well the robe was the only thing that was used?
No sir for he had the veil and the caps.

274: Wight did have them?
Yes sir.

275: Such as are represented there?
Well perhaps pretty much the same. I would not be positive but possibly they were pretty much the same, – but as I said I can’t be positive about that. It has been a great many years since I saw these things in Texas, – half of a mans life time, and more, and so I can’t remember about that, but it is my impression now that they were pretty much the same as they appear there. It has been a long time since I have had anything to do with this endowment business, and I have not tried to think about it, – on the contrary I have tried to get it out of my mind.

276: When did you leave Salt Lake did you say?
When did I leave Utah you mean?

277: Yes sir?
I left there in the year 1870.

278: During all the time you were there, were you a member of the church in Utah?
Yes sir.

279: You were not a member of the church during the time that you were there?
No sir.

280: You are not a member of that church now?
No sir.

281: Of what church are you a member at the present time?
The church of Christ denominated the Re-organized church.

282: Do they have any endowment of that kind in the Re-organized church of which you are now a member?
No sir. If they have I never have seen it or heard of it.

283: Do they teach anything of the kind?
In the re-organized church?

284: Yes sir?
No sir, – not to my knowledge.

285: In the endowment that was conferred at Salt Lake, you may state whether or not there was an oath required of the parties who received the ordinance?
 

286: To what effect?
To the effect that there was an oath required, – there was an oath required, – the oath that was required was to avenge the blood, or the death of the prophet.

287: Was there any such an oath, of any oath at all required in the administration of the endowments under Lyman Wight?
In Texas?

288: Yes sir?
No sir, – no such an oath was required at all. There was nothing of the kind required.

289: When and under what circumstances did you sever your connection with the Mormon church in Utah?
I severed my connection with them in the year of 1870.

290: In the year 1870?
Yes sir, and that was the year I came out from there.

291: You came from Utah at that time?
Yes sir, I left there that year.

292: What was the occasion of the severance of your connection with that organization, if you are permitted to tell what it was?
Well the occasion was that the doctrine taught there was not in keeping with that which is written in the inspired books, or the books that we acknowledged to be the inspired books, which are the bible the book of Mormon and the book of Doctrine and Covenants.

293: You left because the doctrines and teachings of the church in Utah did not conform to the doctrine set forth and taught in these inspired books.
Yes sir.

294: Well did they differ at the time you went there, from what they were at the time you went there?
 
No sir, I think they were presented about the same. I am not positive about that however, but there was one doctrine and that was about Adam being our God, – I can’t say about when that was introduced, – what is something I can’t state, but that was a doctrine that I never agreed with, and could not accept for the reason that I could not understand how he could be our God and have fallen under condemnation the way he did; but however that was Brigham Young send a proclamation to that effect our to the people, but whether it was in 1852 or 1854 or 1856 I could not say. I could not say as to the time, for I could not answer as to the time. At any rate I objected to that doctrine, and would not accept it.

295: That was one of the doctrines you seriously objected to?
Yes sir, and I would not accept it, for it was one of the doctrines I objected to, and polygamy was the other.

296: When you went there were you re-baptized?
Yes sir.

297: Where were you baptized before you went there if at all?
I was first baptized out North of this in Ray county in ’37.

298: That was when you first joined the church?
Yes sir.

299: Well what was the occasion of your re-baptism in Salt Lake City?
Well it was supposed that the people in crossing the plains at that time, would naturally committ sins, and they considered it was beneficial to be re-baptized.

300: Were all that went there to Salt Lake re-baptized?
It was the common practice of all that went there to be re-baptized.

301: That was on the theory that it was the next thing to an impossibility to go across the plains without doing some little sin I suppose?
Yes sir, for the reason I presume that the trip across the plains in those days was on fraught with a great deal of hardship, worry and trouble, and it was supposed that it was impossible for any one to make the trip, and undergo all these difficulties and worriments without sommitting some sin, and therefore they had better be baptized when they arrived there, and that was what was done.

302: Was the ordinance of baptism the same?
Yes sir.

303: The same as was originally conferred?
Yes sir, it was all just for the re-mission of sins.

304: For the remission of sins?
Yes sir. It was for the re-mission of sins as I understood it.

305: Now I will call your attention to what is said to have been the oath required to be taken, or to have been taken I should say, – In the endowment in Salt Lake City?
Yes sir.

306: Was it as set out on page six of the exhibit here to fore shown you?
Let me see it.

307: I now hand you the exhibit that contains what I have called your attention to, and I will ask you to read it if you can find it here, – that is to read the oath that you were required to make in Salt Lake City if you can find it here?
I don’t remember of taking any oath only to avenge the blood of Joseph the Martyr, and of his brother Hyrum Smith. I find it here to teach your children so and so. Now it might have all been in there at the time I took it but if it was I don’t remember it. Now it is just this way. I am satisfied from what I had heard before I took my endowments that there were many things done in the endowment house at one time that were not done at the time I received mine. I am satisfied of that fact.

308: Do you mean before you received your endowments or afterwards?
Before.

308: That were done, many things were done in the endowment house before you received you endowments, that were not done afterwards?
Yes sir.

310: Do you recognize that in the exhibit which I have handed you as the other you did take?
Yes sir, I recognize it, but I can’t say that I took it at all.

311: You recognize it?
Yes sir. That is what I said.

312: Well now would you be kind enough to read it to the Notary?
“We were then made to swear to avenge the death of Joseph Smith the martyr, together with that of his brother Hyrum, on this American Nation, and that we would teach our children and children’s children to do so. The penalty for this grip and oath was dis embowellment”. Now I recognize the part of it that we took to avenge the death of Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum, and it may be that I took it all, for I hardly ever did anything on the halves when I was there, but if I did take all of it I do not remember, but as I said before it is altogether probably that I took it all.

313: Now then read the part of it after the part that you say you recollect taking?
“On this American Nation, and that we would teach our children and our children’s children to do so”. I presume I took that oath but if I did I don’t recollect it. “It goes on as I read before and states that the penalty for this grip and oath was dis embowellment, – I don’t recollect that, although I suppose there was a penalty attached to the oath, but I don’t recollect that part of it although it is probably that that was it, and I took it.

314: Cross examine the witness.
 

315: You say you belonged to the original church?
Yes sir.

316: You were baptized into the original church?
Yes sir.

317: At one time you belonged to the church in Utah?
Yes sir.

318: And left that church about the year 1870?
Yes sir, that was the time I left them and left Utah at the same time.

319: Now when did you become a memeber of the re-organized church?
It was in Utah.

320: I did not ask you where you became a member of that church, I asked you when you became a member of it?
In 1870.

321: You became a member of the plaintiff church in this case, which is the re-organized church in 1870?
Yes sir in 1870.

322: And that was in Utah, – it was in Utah that you joined the reorganized church?
Yes sir.

323: When did you leave Utah?
In the fall.

324: In the fall of what year?
In the fall of that same year that I joined the church I now belong to which was in the fall of 1870.

325: That was in the fall after you became a member of the plaintiff church?
Yes sir.

326: Well how long was it after you became a member of the re-organized church that you left Utah?
Well it was probably about four months. May be something like that.

327: Where did you go then?
After I left Utah?

328: Yes sir?
Well sir I went into Iowa.

329: How long did you stay there?
Well I stayed there eighteen or nineteen years I guess.

330: At what point in Iowa did you stay eighteen of nineteen years?
It was in Shelby County.

331: Well were you a member of any church there?
Yes sir.

332: Of what church were you a member?
I was a member of the re-organized church there.

333: That was in Shelby County, Iowa?
Yes sir. I was a member of the re-organized church all the time I was there, and have been ever since.

334: At what point in Shelby County, Iowa were you living?
At Gallands Grove.

335: Have you left there?
Yes sir.

336: When did you leave there?
I left there, – let me see when it was, – I moved down into Missouri, – well I think I have been in this state going on to four years.

337: Where about in Missouti do you live?
In Worth County.

338: At what point in Worth County, Missouri do you live?
Well it is in the western part of the county.

339: Are you a member of the re-organized church there?
Yes sir.

340: Of what church are you a member there?
The church of Christ denominated the re-organized church.

341: Is there any branch there?
Yes sir.

342: Of which you are a member?
Yes sir.

343: What branch is that?
The branch of Sweet Home, – the Sweet Home branch.

344: And you reside there now?
Yes sir.

345: When did you come here?
I came here yesterday evening.

346: Upon whose application did you come here?
On E.L. Kelleys suggestion.

347: Was it a suggestion or a request?
He asked me to come here. He suggested me to come here.

348: Now when you were in Salt Lake City you say you took certain endowments?
Yes sir.

349: I believe you say when you took these endowments the out side world was excluded?
Yes sir.

350: It was done in secret?
Yes sir.

351: Now were any body but gentiles excluded from the place at the time these endowments were given?
Yes sir it was closed to every body but the ones that were in there taking their endowments.

352: None but the ones who were receiving their endowments were permitted to remain?
No sir. Just them and the ones who officiated?

353: Was any body entitled to be there, but those?
No sir, no one to my knowledge.

354: Were there any sentinels posted to keep out intruders?
I cannot tell you, but I don’t think there was any occasion for that.

355: Well were there any door-keepers?
Well there might have been, but I don’t recollect that there was. There might have been but I did not notice them for I had too much to tend to to notice anything like that.

356: Do you know whether the doors were locked or not?
No sir.

357: Is that what you mean, that you don’t know whether the out side door was locked or not?
No sir, I don’t know.

358: Were you directed not to disclose the method of the endowments?
Yes sir.

359: Did you agree not to do it?
Yes sir.

360: You agreed not to do it?
Yes sir. I did in certain places. I was only to do it in certain places.

361: Only in certain places?
Yes sir.

362: Was one of these places where it could be divulged, a court room where depositions were being taken?
No sir.

363: That was not an exception?
No sir.

364: When you were living in Salt Lake City, would you have disclosed the method of: these endowments?
No sir.

365: When you were living in Salt Lake City, you would not have disclosed the method of these endowments?
No sir, not when I was a member of the church. I would not have done so when I was a member of the church.

366: You say that you would not have disclosed them while you were a member of the church?
No sir.

368: A member of what church?
The Utah church.

368: Then you kept your promise or obligation while you were a member of the Utah church?
Yes sir. 369 (misprinted 360)

368: And when you left it and jointed the re-organized church you violated your promise did you?
Yes sir. More so here than any where else too.

370: What do you mean by “more so here than any where else”?
I mean that I have told more about it here than I have any place else, for I have said but little about the endowments.

371: Then you have violated your obligation more so here than at any other point?
Yes sir.

372: So you have violated the agreement that you entered into there not to violate or reveal the obligations you took at the time of the taking of these endowments, more to day than you ever did before?
Yes sir.

373: That is more than at any other time since you have joined the re-organized church?
Yes sir, and more than at any time before I joined it.

374: Ad the penalty for a violation of that obligation was disembowmellment was it not
Yes sir. The penalty was disembowellment.

375: Is that the fact?
What is that?

376: Was that the penalty for revealing or disclosing these secrets?
Ye sir.

377: Well what were the secretes which you were not to reveal?
The grips and tokens of the endowments, the grips and tokens of the priest hood.

378: And the obligation was that they must not be disclosed?
Yes sir they were not to be disclosed. They were not to be divulged at all and that was the menalty that was attached.

379: Under what penalty?
The penalty of disemnowellment.

380: Now before you received these endowments, did you swear before you received them that you would not divulge them?
Yes sir, when I took these endowments I took that oath.

381: Did you take an oath that you would not divulge what you were then receiving?
Yes sir, have told you that half a dozen times, and that ought to do.

382: All who were taking the endowments took the same oath, and you were amongst them number?
Ye sir, we all took it, – I amongst the rest.

383: You were a little in doubt as to whether you took that oath when you were first shown it, were you not?
Yes sir, and I don’t remember now that I took all that oath, -that is I don’t remember positively about it, but I think I did.

384: Well you said that you did not make any halves of anything in those days?
Yes sir, I generally saw the thing through.

385: And therefore you took that oath?
Yes sir.

386: You took the whole thing?
Yes sir.

387: And you kept the obligation while you were living in Salt Lake City?
Yes sir, I certainly kept the obligation while I was there.

388: You left that church because you did not approve of some of its prat ices and teachings?
Yes sir.

389: Now with reference to the revealing of this obligation, -were you a better man while you lived there in Utah, and did not reveal it, or were you the better man when you come down here to Missouri and reveal it?
 

390: Answer the question?
I think I am a better man now, because I have out grown these secret binding practices, that are put on man irreligiously.

391: Is there anything you know of that compels you to disclose that oath?
No sir.

392: There was nothing that compelled you to divulge or disclose that oath?
No sir there was nothing to compel me to divulge anything. I don’t recognize any obligations to disclose anything at all, -there was nothing said about that.

393: Neither then at the time you took this obligation, nor at any other time?
No sir.

394: What age were you when you took these endowments in Salt Lake?
What age?

395: Yes sir? What was your age at the time you took these endowments in Salt Lake?
well that was in 1857 that I took the endowments, and that, -I was born in ’26. Yes sir that is right, -I was born in ’26 and I took the endowments in Utah in 1857.

396: You were a full grown man?
Yes sir.

397: At the muturity of all your powers?
Yes sir.

399: How many children did you have, or did you have any?
I had three children.

400: Did you have your wife take these endowments?
Yes sir.

401: You both took them at the same time, -is that the fact?
Yes sir.

402: Well after you took them, as you say you took them in 1857, you remained a member of the same church that administered these endowments until 1870?
yes sir.

403: Did you know that the church all that time practiced polygamy?
No sir.

404: You did not know that it practice polygamy?
No sir I did not know it.

405: Well did it in fact?
Practice polygamy?

406: Yes sir?
I heard it did.

407: Well did it in fact practice polygamy?
I suppose it did. I heard it did, and I have no reason to doubt the fact.

408: But you did not practice it?
No sir. I did not.

409: Well did you know anybody else that belonged to the church and that did not practice it?
A great many people belonged handwritten at the bottom 398

409: You had a wife and family then?
Yes sir. to the Utah church that did not.

410: Did not what?
Did not practice polygamy.

411: About how many men, – how many members belonged to the church at the time you were living there, – say at the time you left?
What time?

412: Say in 1870?
Well I could not say. I could not tell you.

413: Did the greater portion of the membership of the Utah church while you were a resident of Utah and a member of that church, practice polygamy?
No sir, I don’t think there was anything like the greater portion of them practiced it. I was acquainted with a great many that did not practice it I know.

414: You knew a great many that did not practice it?
Yes sir.

415: How about your being acquainted with people that did practice it?
Well I was acquainted with some.

416: Some people that practiced polygamy?
Yes sir.

417: About how many people were you acquainted with that they said practiced polygamy?
I was acquainted with a great many men that they said had more wives than one.

418: Who said it?
The men that had the wives.

419: How many of that class were you acquainted with?
Well I was acquainted with a good many of them.

420: With how many men were you acquainted that it was said had more wives than one?
Well I could not tell the number.

421: That was when you were living in Utah?
Yes sir.

422: Well you did not object very seriously to polygamy then did you?
Yes sir I did. I objected to the secrecy of it. I never like or approved of the idea that it was practiced, and that was one of the reasons – the main reason I may say, – that I left the church.

423: You objected to the secrecy of it, but you did not object to the practice of it?
I have answered that. My answer to that is that I objected to the practice of it at all in any way.

424: Did you regard it as a heinous sin?
At that time.

425: Yes sir?
No sir, I don’t know that I did.

426: How did you regard it from a religious stand point?
From what was written in the standard books of the church I saw that it was condemned by these standard books, and therefore I did not approve of it. I saw that it was not approved, and therefore I did not approve of it, and I objected to it for that reasons, and because I considered it did not tend to good morals.

427: At what time did you understand that the Utah church practiced polygamy at first?
What is that?

428: When did you first understand that the Utah church practiced polygamy?
Well it was only hearsay with me, but I understood that it was about from the year 1848.

429: is it not a fact that a great deal of this you have been testifying to here about what the church was only hearsay?
Yes sir, a good deal of it, but not all of it by any means.

430: Well then what did you understand from hearsay that the church in Utah first practiced polygamy?
Well from hearsay we heard in Texas that they practiced it in Nauvoo.

431: And when you head that you left Texas and went there?
No sir.

432: You did not?
No sir.

433: Is that not what you stated on your direct examination?
No sir. I said I started from Texas and went to the Indian Territory. and was there a while, and then from the Indian Territory I went to Utah.

434: That is what you stated?
Yes sir.

435: Where did you get your first lessons in polygamy?
In Texas.

436: That was where you were first taught the principle of polygamy?
Yes sir. Well no sir it was not either, it was not there either, not the first lessons?

437: Well where did you first receive instruction or information about that principle?
In 1845.

438: Where I say?
In Wisconsin.

439: Under Whom?
Under Lyman Wight.

440: He was your leader, the head of the branch or faction you were with?
Yes sir.

441: He was the one that taught it to you?
Yes sir.

442: And that was in Wisconsin in 1845?
Yes sir.

443: Did any body else teach it to you at that time?
No sir.

444: Was there a man by the name of Miller there?
No sir, he was not with us at that time.

445: When was Miller with you, and where?
He was with us in the year 1842 and came down with us in the fall of ’33.

446: In ’33?
He came down with us in the fall of ’33.

447: Down where?
Down to Nauvoo.

448: Do you mean ’33?
Yes sir, he came down with us in the fall of ’33, the fall or winter, for it might have been in the winter. He came down from Wisconsin.

449: Well I think you mean 1843, do you not mean 1843 instead of ’33.
Yes sir, that is right. I was mistaken. I meant 1843 instead of ’33.

450: Well I thought you were mistaken therefore I wanted you to correct it. You meant the year 1843 instead of ’33 as you stated it?
Yes sir.

451: Now you knew this man Miller at that time?
Yes sir.

452: Did he practice polygamy at that time?
Not that I am aware of.

453: Were you intimate with him?
Yes sir.

454: Well was he a polygamist at any time?
When we went to Texas he claimed to have more than one wife when he came to us at that point.

455: He claimed to have wives?
Yes sir.

456: More than one wife did he claim that?
Yes sir.

457: At what time did he come to you?
He came there in ’37, no it was in 1847. I get these dates mixed, when I say ’33 I mean 1843 and when I said ’37 I meant 1847.

458: Now where did he get his wives?
He got them at Salt Lake and in winter quarters I suppose.

459: Do you know whether he came from Nauvoo or from Salt Lake at the time he came to where you were there in Texas?
Well I do not know how he traveled, only that he said he left Nauvoo with the emigration, and went to winter quarters, and from there he went to Texas.

460: He said he went from winter quarters to Texas?
Yes sir, that is what he said.

461: Did you see him when he arrived in Texas?
Yes sir.

462: Did he have a family?
Yes sir.

463: Did he have several wives with him?
Yes sir he had several women with him that he said were his wives.

464: Well how many did he have? You were there at the time and of course would have an interest in the arrival of a man who was practicing polygamy according to his own confession, and who had his wives with him?
I don’t know, – I don’t remember.

465: Of course you had an interest in a man who was trying to re-inforce the church in that way, therefore you ought to be able to remember the number of women he had with him in his moving harem so to speak.
Let me see, – I do remember now, – he had three.

466: You knew him before that, – that is you knew this man Miller at the time he came there?
Certainly.

467: Did he become a member of the church there in Texas, – did he join the branch there?
Yes sir.

468: He joined the branch there of which you were a member?
Yes sir.

469: And this was in Texas?
Yes sir.

470: Did he bring a certificate of membership that time before he joined the branch?
Not that I remember of. I don’t think it was necessary for him to have a certificate as it was well known that he was a member, and I think he was coupled with Lyman Wight on that mission there, and that was the reason he came there.

471: Who coupled him with Lymen on that mission?
Joseph.

472: What Joseph?
Joseph the prophet and seer.

473: Joseph the seer coupled Lyman Wight with Miller on that mission? Is that it?
Yes sir, that is my understanding of it.

474: Then is it a fact that Lyman Wight and Miller being coupled with him, went out to preach the doctrines of the church as missionaries under the authority of Joseph Smith the Seer?
Yes sir. That was so understood. That was the understanding I had of it.

475: Were you with them in that capacity to any extent?
I was with Lyman Wight in Texas when he came there.

476: Did you not go there with him?
Yes sir, that is what I stated before.

477: You went to Texas with Lyman Wight?
Yes sir.

478: Where did you go from to Texas?
From Wisconsin.

479: Where did you go from to Wisconsin?
From Nauvoo.

480: You went from Nauvoo to Wisconsin, – is that correct?
Yes sir.

481: And from Wisconsin to Texas?
Yes sir.

482: What year, and what time in the year did you leave Nauvoo, to go to Wisconsin?
We left Nauvoo to go to Wisconsin in the fall of 1844.

483: In the fall of 1844?
Yes sir.

484: And you and all received your instructions from Joseph Smith before he was killed, had you not?
Well I under stand that George Miller and Lyman Wight had received their instructions from him, – that is what I understood.

485: From him before he was killed?
Yes sir, – they could not very well receive them after he was killed.

486: How many went with Lyman Wight?
There was about one hundred and fifty souls, – about that number.

487: By whom were they designated to go?
They were sent by Joseph Smith.

488: The ones that went were selected by Joseph Smith?
Yes sir, that is my understanding.

489: How were they designated or selected?
The instructions were that George Miller and Lyman Wight should take the Black River country and take a mission there, and afterwards it was changed to Texas, and we were all coupled together on that mission. We were all coupled on that one mission.

490: Now you say that the first place you heard of polygamy was in Wisconsin?
Yes sir.

491: From whom did you first hear of it there?
Lyman Wight.

492: Did Lyman Wight have any of his plural wives with him in Wisconsin?
Yes sir.

493: He had one there?
Yes sir.

494: And I believe you stated that you paid some attention to her at one time, did you not?
No sir.

495: I understood you to make that staement?
Well you mis understood me then. 496 (Mistakenly marked as second 495)

495: Well that is what I understood you to say, and I would like to know if I am wrong about that?
Yes sir, you are wrong.

497: Well what was it you said about that woman that you paid attention to?
I said that there was a girl in the company that I paid some attentions to, and he sealed her to somebody else.

498: How did you find out that he had sealed her to some body else?
Well I found it out.

499: Well I want to know how you learned that he had sealed her to some body else?
Well it leaked out in some way.

500: Well how did it leak out?
By some one telling that she was a married woman.

501: And then you quit her?
Yes sir, I paid no more attention to her after that, fir I did not want to be paying attentions to another man’s wife.

502: Well, but I understood you to say that she was only a spiritual wife?
Well I used that term, for the reason that at that time a multiplication of wives was called spiritual wife, or a plural wife, and she was a plural wife.

503: Do you mean by that that she lived in polygamy, – sustained a polygamous relation with the man to whom she was sealed?
Yes sir. I mean by that that she was living with a man that had another wife at the same time.

504: Then you knew these things before you went with Lyman Wight to Texas?
I did.

505: And knowing these things to be facts, yet you sent these with him?
Yes sir.

506: You knew of all this polygamy business before you went with him to Texas?
Yes sir. I knew of these three cases that I have told you of. I knew of them before I went to Texas.

507: Well sir I must compliment you on the way you are testifying for you are testifying very candidly, and not letting anything prevent you from telling the truth?
Yes sir that is what I am striving to do.

508: And you are not keeping anything back?
No sir, nothing that I am aware of.

509: Now can you tell me of any more cases where men had plural wives other than these three cases you have mentioned?
No sir.

510: Any one that practiced polygamy?
No sir.

511: I mean in that faction that went to Texas?
No sir.

512: You did not object to going with them to Texas?
No sir. I did not object.

513: You did not object to leaving them and going to Salt Lake either because they were polygamists out there?
No sir.

514: All this occurred along between 1845 or 1844 and 1856?
Yes sir.

515: You were in the prime of your life at that time?
Yes sir.

516: At the time that men are supposed to be in the prime of their life?
Yes sir.

517: When did you get your wife?
I got my wife in 1848.

518: And that was before you went to Salt Lake?
Yes sir.

519: When did you say you went to Salt Lake?
I went to Utah in 1856.

520: You took your wife with you?
Yes sir.

521: Now you took some endowments both in Texas and Salt Lake?
Yes sir.

522: How long had you been in Utah before you took your endowments you speak of?
Did you say in Utah?

523: Yes sir.
At Salt Lake City?

524: Yes sir, if that is where you took the endowments in Utah?
I had been these pretty near a year at the time, it was in 1857 that I took the endowments there in Salt Lake.

525: Now I understand you to have said that you have not been similar endowments like those you took in Salt Lake City, since you left here?
I don’t understand that question.

526: Did you say that you had not seen any endowments like those you took at Salt Lake City, since you left there?
I said that the endowments given at Salt Lake were not like these that Lyman Wight gave.

527: Where they like anything else in the way of endowments that you have seen since you left Salt Lake City?
No sir I have not seen anything like that.

528: That is you haven’t seen anything since you left Salt Lake City, like the endowments you took while there?
No sir.

529: Well what have you seen in the way of endowments since you left there?
Nothing only the endowment of the Spirit.

530: What is that?
If a man does the law of the Father, he had the promise of the life that now is and the life that is to come and the endowment of the Spirit will come in that way.

531: You have taken that endowment?
Yes sir.

532: Since you left Salt Lake?
Yes sir.

533: Is that the only endowment you have taken since you left Salt Lake?
Yes sir.

534: Now what have you been taught by that?
I have been taught that all these things that lead to polygamy, and these things which are not in keeping with the law are not of God. That is what I have been taught.

535: Well tell me the positive things that you have been taught since you left Salt Lake?
The endowments that I have received since I left Salt Lake have given me to understand that I am strictly in the path of duty, and if I continue in that path I will ultimately attain eternal life at the end of the race. That is what it teaches me, and the consciousness that that will be the result assures me that I am in that path.

536: Have you ever received any endowment with reference to the doctrine that you must believe?
No sir.

537: Nothing of that kind has been received by you?
No sir.

538: Have you ever received any endowment with reference to foot washings since you left there?
Since I left Salt Lake?

539: Yes sir.
No sir.

540: Have you at any time received any endowment with reference to anything else since you have been there?
No sir. Been where?

541: Since you left Salt Lake?
No sir.

542: Just this one endowment?
Yes sir, just the endowment of the Spirit that is all.

543: How do you know you received that endowment?
I know it.

544: Well how do you know it?
I know it by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

545: That is one that you know you have received since you left Salt Lake City?
Yes sir. I had received it before too, but not in so great a degree.

546: Well were you in possession of that endowment when you were in Salt Lake?
Yes sir.

547: You were in possession of that endowment there?
Yes sir, I can say I was.

548: Can you say the same thing in relation to your connection with the Lyman Wight church in Texas?
Yes sir, for I received a portion of the Spirit when I was first baptized, and I kept it with me through it all.

549: That baptism you regard as an endowment?
Yes sir.

550: You were first baptized you told us I believe, in Ray county in this state?
Yes sir, over across the river from here.

551: When were you next baptized?
I was next baptized in Salt Lake City or before that?

552: What is that?
I said I was next baptized in Salt Lake City in Utah.

553: Did you not say before that?
Yes sir.

554: Before you went to Salt Lake City?
Yes sir.

555: Well now when were you next baptized after you were baptized the first time over here in Bay County?
I was next baptized in the Cherokee Nation in the Indian Territory.

556: Who baptized you there?
An elder from Utah.

557: You were baptized the next time after you first baptism over in Bay County, which was the first time you were baptized, – you were the next time baptized by an elder from Utah in the Cherokee Nation in the Indian Territory?
Yes sir.

558: Who was he?
The elder that baptized me?

559: Yes sir?
Henry Miller.

560: Well were these two baptisms all you received?
Oh no, I was baptized again after that.

561: Well when were you baptized the next time?
I was baptized again after I arrived in Utah.

562: That makes three times you were baptized?
Yes sir.

563: Were you baptized any more after you got to Utah?
Yes sir.

564: Well when were you baptized again after that first time in Utah?
Oh to ennumerate them all I can’t do it. I have been baptized a number of times, and I cannot ennumerate them all.

565: About how many times?
I don’t know how many times.

566: When were you baptized the next time after you left Utah?
I was never baptized after I left Utah.

567: You were not?
No sir.

568: Then upon that baptism were you received into the re-organized church ?
I was baptized into the re-organized church in Utah before I left there.

569: You were baptized into the re-organized church in Utah?
Yes sir.

570: Where were you when you were baptized into the Utah church?
I was baptized into the Utah church in the Indian Territory at the time I told you, and then I was baptized again when I got there.

571: When were you baptized originally?
In ’37.

572: That was in Ray County, Missouri?
Yes sir.

573: Then you were re-baptized the next time I believe you stated in the Indian Territory?
Yes sir.

574: In the Cherokee Nation as you expressed it?
Yes sir.

575: By an elder in the Utah church named Miller?
Yes sir.

576: And next where?
In Salt Lake City.

577: That was in the Utah church was it not?
Yes sir.

578: And next you were baptized into the re-organized church?
Yes sir.

579: And you were baptized into the re-organized church in Salt Lake City also?
Yes sir.

580: Now can you explain to me, why, if your baptism was good in Ray County, was it necessary to baptize you again, – over again, – into the re-organized church?
Well I don’t know that I can explain that or the reason for it, any more than it seemes to be a common practice amongst the people.

581: Sir, what is that?
I said it seemed to be a common practice amongst the people.

582: What seemed to be a common practice amongst the people?
To be baptising them. The people were all more or less in the dark about it, and I might be more or less in the dark too, and so to make sure and have everything all right that was the practice.

583: To make sure of it they were all baptized over again?
Not all but the ones who had been baptized into the Utah church were re-baptized again before they were admitted into the re-organized church, but I understand it is not necessary in the case of parties who were baptized into the original church before the death of Joseph Smith, and who have never become identified with the Utah church or any other faction of the original church after the death of Joseph the Seer.

584: That is your understanding of the practice in that regard?
Yes sir.

585: Then how many churches have you belonged to?
Well I would have to count them up before I could answer?

586: You can’t say?
I can’t answer without counting them up.

587: Well let us do some counting?
Very well, – go ahead.

588: You were baptized first into the old original church in Ray County in 1837?
Yes sir. I was baptized into the church at that time, but that was not the first time I was baptized, for I was first baptized into the Methodist church.

589: That was by effusion (???)
That was by sprinkling.

590: Then when were you next baptized?
Then I was baptized into the church of Christ in Ray County, – that was the second time I was baptized in my life, but the first time I was baptized into the Church of Christ.

591: That was the church of the same name that these defendants belong to?
It was the Church of Christ, denominated “Latter Day Saints”.

592: Was there a church at that time denominated “Latter Day Saints”?
Yes sir.

593: In what year was that?
That was in 1837.

594: That was the time you were baptized into the church you have mentioned?
Yes sir.

595: Then in what church were you baptized in 1837?
In Ray County, is that where you mean?

596: Yes sir, in that church were you baptized, into what church was you baptized in Ray County in 1837?
In the Church of Christ “denominated” Latter Day Saints.

597: Then you were baptized next into what church?
I was baptized you might say the next time into the “Brighamite church”.

598: What church is that?
Well it was called by a good many people the “Brighamite” church, or the Utah church.

599: That was the time you were baptized in the Indian Territory?
Yes sir.

600: Now you called it the “Brighamite church”, now what was that church denominated?
No what way.

601: If these others we called Latter Day Saints, what was the Brighamite church denominated at that time?
The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Yes sir, that is the title which I have given you.

603: And that is what it was termed at that time?
Yes sir.

604: Well now you were baptized into what church at the time you were first baptized in Utah?
In Utah?

605: Yes sir.
The same church. I don’t know that that was a baptism into any church at all. I told you that I was baptized after I got to Utah for the remission of sins for any little sin I might have committed in crossing the plains getting there. It was presumed that people could not very well that that trip without committing sin of some kind, and so all were baptized again after they got there, but my understanding was that that baptism was for the remission of sins.

606: Well what church were you baptized into the next time?
In Utah?

607: Yes sir.
When I first went to Utah?

608: No sir, I mean after you left the Utah church?
It was the Church of Christ, denominated the “Reorganized church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”.

609: That was the last time you were baptized?
Yes sir.

610: So you have had quite an experience in the line of baptism?
Yes sir.

611: Were you ever baptized for any particular, specified purpose after that time?
I was baptized for my health once.

612: Were you ever baptized for anything else?
Yes sir, for the remission of sins.

613: Is that all?
Yes sir.

614: That is all?
Yes sir.

615: You have faith in that baptism?
Yes sir.

616: What were you baptized for the other time?
Well the ceremony was the same.

617: Well what was it for?
Well it was caused for a certain class claiming to be a leader, and they were to be baptized when they came in under that organization.

618: What class was that?
Well that was Lyman Wight, he claimed to be leader, and there was Brigham Young he claimed to be leader and there was a lot more of them.

619: They claimed to be the true leaders of the church after the death of Joseph Smith?
Yes sir.

620: Well let that pass, – Now when you left Brigham Young there, you were baptized again?
Yes sir.

621: Were you ever baptized for the dead?
No sir.

622: Did you ever see any body baptized for the dead?
Yes sir.

623: Yes you say?
Yes sir.

624: Well where did you see there?
In Montrose?

625: Any where else?
Yes sir, in Nauvoo and in Texas.

626: Well where is Montrose?
It is or was right oppositie Nauvoo in Iowa.

627: At what time was that?
That was in 1843.

628: And in what church was that?
The same church.

629: Well what church was it?
The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The old church.

630: Did the old church baptize for the dead?
Yes sir.

631: That was the church of which Joseph Smith was the President?
Yes sir.

632: And in his life time?
Yes sir.

633: It baptized for the dead?
It did.

634: Did Lyman Wight’s church baptize for the dead?
It did.

635: Lyman Wight also did?
Yes sir.

636: Did the Utah church baptize for the dead?
Well I suppose so, but I never witnesses any baptism for the dead while there.

637: Does the re-organized church, of which you are now a member, baptize for the dead?
I never witnessed it if they do.

638: You are a teacher in the re-organized church?
Yes sir.

639: Just state what your position is in the re-organ-church?
I am an elder.

640: Do you preach?
Yes sir.

641: Do you baptize also?
I do.

642: Well you may state if you have ever known of any baptises for the dead in the re-organized church?
No sir.

643: Do they in fact baptize for the dead?
If they do I never witnessed it.

644: Well that is not the question, – do they baptize for the dead in the re-organized church?
I never heard of their doing so, and I never saw any baptisms for the dead in this church that I know belong to, – that is the re-organized church.

645: You never heard of the re-organized church baptizing for the dead?
No sir.

646: But you have heard of Joseph Smith’s church baptizing for the dead?
Yes sir.

647: And have seen that ceremony performed in his day?
Yes sir.

648: Now is the church you now belong to, and the church of which Joseph Smith was a president alike in that respect?
 

649: Answer the question?
What is it?

650: Is the old church which existed at Nauvoo, Illinois, during the life time of Joseph Smith, and the re-organized church to which you now belong, alike in respect to the question of baptism for the dead?
That ordinance is not practiced in the re-organized church at the present time, but the re-organized church, is ready and willing to perform its duty in that particular when the time and place presents itself for performing it. They believe in it and I understand will practice it when the proper time arrives for so doing. That is all the answer I have to give to that question.

651: But they don’t practice it now?
No sir.

652: And they never have done it yet, – that is they never have practiced it yet?
That is my understanding.

653: That they have not?
Yes sir, that they have not for the reasons I have given.

654: You say they believe in it, and will yet do it?
Yes sir, but they believe the time for doing it must be designated by an higher power than man, – that is that the time when they shall do it shall be designated by a higher power than man.

655: Well the old church with Joseph the Seer presiding over it, did perform the ordinance of baptism for the dead, – Is that not what you stated?
Yes sir, that is what I said.

656: You saw that done yourself?
Yes sir, I witnessed him baptizing for the dead.

657: Well are the two churches, – the old church over which the prophet and seer presided, and the present re-organized church, alike in that respect?
No sir they are not alike in respect to the actual performance of the baptism for the dead, but the teachings and doctrines are the same.

658: Is it right to teach a doctrine and not practice it?
No sir.

659: It is not right to teach a doctrine and not practice it?
No sir.

660: Then why do you teach the doctrine of baptism for the dead if you don’t practice it?
We don’t teach the doctrine of baptism for the dead at the present time.

661: Does any one in the re-organized church teach it?
Not at the present time.

662: Do you know what confirmation is in the church?
I think I do.

663: Is that an endowment?
Well yes, it might be called an endowment.

664: Were you ever confirmed?
Yes sir.

665: When were you confirmed?
In ’37.

666: Into what church were you confirmed?
Into the church of Christ.

667: Were you ever confirmed afterwards?
Yes sir.

668: Into what church?
Into the church, – the “Brighamite church”.

669: Were you ever confirmed after that?
Yes sir.

670: Into what church were you confirmed?
The reorganized church.

671: Well now if the church you joined in 1837 was the same church that you joined in 1870, – the last time, – what use was there in your being confirmed at all, – what was the necessity for your confirmation in the re-organized church?
Well I think I have answered that question. I think I have told you it was because of the different leaders leading off portions of the church that had their institution, and those that came in after being with these different leaders. must come in through that door, – by being baptized and re-confirmed, and I was one that had to do that.

672: At the door of the church?
Yes sir.

673: Do you remember what the name of the church was that you were confirmed into when you were last confirmed?
When I was last confirmed?

674: Yes sir, – what was the name of the church that you were confirmed into the last time?
Yes sir.

675: Well what was it?
I was confirmed a member of the re-organized church.

675: The “re-organized church” or what?
Of Jesus Christ.

676: The re-organized church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was it not?
The church of Christ, denominated the re-organized church of Christ of Latter Day Saints.

677: What was said at the confirmation if you remember it?
It was something like this “I confirm you a member of the church of Christ”.

678: Well is that all that was said?
No sir.

679: Well what else was said?
It was the confirming of the Holy Ghost, or sealing of the Holy Ghost.

680: Was the language used to you at any time?
Yes sir.

681: Where?
In Missouri.

682: When you were last confirmed?
Yes sir.

683: Well was that language used to you at any other time?
Yes sir.

684: I mean at any other time before that?
Yes sir.

685: It was?
Yes sir.

686: Well when was it used before that last time?
Every time I ever was baptized.

687: Always the same language?
Yes sir.

688: The same identical language was used ever time?
Well about the same language.

689: The word “reorganized” was used the last time you were confirmed?
No sir I don’t know that it was.

690: Well do you say it was not?
No sir, – it might have been, and it might have been used, – I don’t recollect.

691: Do you confirm people now?
Yes sir.

692: In what church do you confirm them?
I confirm them a member of the church of Christ denominated the Latter Day Saints.

693: Is that the phraseology you use?
That is the language I use.

694: Do you use the word “reorganized” at all?
No sir, but it all understood. Every body understands that that is the name we are incorporated under.

695: But do you not use that word “reorganized” when confirming people as members of the church?
No sir.

696: When did you last live at Nauvoo, – when were you there the last time?
In 1844.

697: What time in 1844?
In the fall of 1844.

698: In the fall of 1844 was the last time you were at Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

699: Why did you then leave Nauvoo?
We left there then to go back to Wisconsin.

700: Well what did you go to Wisconsin for that time, – you did not remain there?
We went back to Wisconsin to get the outfit to go down to Texas.

701: Was anything said about polygamy at Nauvoo at the time you left there in 1844?
No sir.

702: There was nothing said about it at Nauvoo at that time, – is that your testimony?
There was not any thing said about it to my knowledge.

703: Did any of them that went through with you to Wisconsin carry plural wives with them?
No sir.

704: Where did they get their plural wives then, – you say they did not take them with them? And I would like to know where they got them, for you said they had them.
In Wisconsin that is where they got them.

705: Do yo know that to be a fact?
Well I don’t know that I can say that it is a fact, I can’t say that I knew it to be a fact that they got them there for I did not see any of them sealed, for as I said before the first I knew of it was in 1845.

706: Now what communication did you have, if any, with Nauvoo, as the time you were in Texas with Lyman Wight.
Well I was not personally a witness of any communication that was received form Nauvoo, if there were any received, but we could hear from Nauvoo in the way of he news that would be floating around over the country, and through the papers too.

707: Were there any reports made to Nauvoo, that you know anything of?
No sir, Lyman did not make any reports to Nauvoo while we were there.

708: Why?
Because we had broken off from that church there. We did not have anything to do with the church at Nauvoo, because we had broken off.

709: Lyman Wight had broken off?
Yes sir.

710: Why did he break off?
I could not say, because we did not agree with them and the way they were doing I suppose.

711: When did that break occur?
In the fall of 1844.

712: I understood you to – say that you went to Texas under orders of Joseph Smith, the seer?
Yes sir, but that was before his death that he gave these orders, for we had orders to go to – Texas for quite a while before we went.

713: Well I understood you to say that that was the orders?
Yes sir that is correct.

714: Well now if Lyman Wight broke off from the church at Nauvoo, how did he break off?
Well he broke off as I understood it because he became dissatisfied with Brigham Young, and he thought that Brigham was usurping aurthority that did not belong to him and he was going to Texas, which was a long way from Nauvoo, and he concluded that Brigham and the church there were acting without authority, that he would refuse to have anything to do with them, and that is what he did.

715: He became dissatisfied because Brigham Young was practicing polygamy?
No sir, I don’t know that that was the reason. That was not the reason that I know of.

716: He did not object to him at that time?
No sir, on that ground. he never advocated the claims of Brigham Young at any time to-be the head of the church, and on the contrary he opposed his claims and broke off from the church at Nauvoo, because he thought they were usurping authority that did not belong to them

717: What time are you speaking of?
I am speaking of the time that we left Nauvoo, and went to Wisconsin.

718: Well I am speaking of the time you went to Texas?
Well it was in 1845 or 1846 that we went there.

719: When you went to Texas from Wisconsin, did you go by Nauvoo?
No sir, we came by Davenport. We came down the river to that place and sold our boats there and got our outfits there for Texas.

720: What outfit did you get there?
We got our teams there. We got whaever we needed there to complete our outfits.

721: Did you go on the river any further than that point?
No sir we left the river there.

722: What point did you say that was?
Davenport.

723: Well what did you do then?
We bought our teams there, and made waggons and went over land to Texas.

724: Did you ever know one William Marks?
Yes sir, I was acquainted with him.

725: When were you acquainted with him?
I was acquainted with him when I was a boy in Nauvoo.

726: When you were a boy in Nauvoo you were acquainted with William Marks?
Yes sir, I got acquainted with him, but I was acquainted with him after that. I first knew him when I was a boy.

727: Where did you know him afterwards?
I knew him in Plano after we left Nauvoo. I knew him then in Plano, Illinois.

728: When was that?
Well I was there in 1868. It was in 1868 that I saw him in Plano.

729: Then when did you see him after that?
William Marks?

730: Yes sir?
I never saw him after that.

731: Did you ever talk with him about the church?
Yes sir I believe so.

732: Where did you talk with him about the church?
I talked with him some in Nauvoo. I talked with him some there about the church.

733: Did you ever talk with him about the church, and about Joseph Smith in connection with the practice of polygamy?
No sir I never introduced the subject of Polygamy to him or he to me. Well no I believe we did too, – and I believe there was something said about it between us.

734: You said you never introduced the subject of polygamy to him?
I never did.

735: Did he introduce it to you?
Well slightly I believe he did.

736: Then why do you make your answer way, – that you, – that he never introduced the subject to you when you know he did introduce it to you?
Well he said like this that he knew the thing was practiced, but he did not know how far it was practiced.

737: By the “thing that was practiced” he referred to, and you mean the practice of polygamy?
Yes sir.

738: There at Nauvoo?
Yes sir.

739: At what time?
 

740: At what time did he ref to as to polygamy being practiced at Nauvoo?
 
At what time?

741: Yes sir?
Well it was before Joseph’s death?

742: Well did he say it was before Joseph’s death?
What is that?

743: Well did he say it was first practiced at Nauvoo?
I don’t know, – he said, ______________

744: Well do ahead and make your answer?
He told me that Joseph came to him at one time, and said to him, “Brother Marks I am glad that you have not received the teachings of this doctrine, for now we have got to go to work” he said” and put down this wicked practice, and I want you to call the – High Counkil together, and I will prefer charges against these members of the church who have charges against these members of the church who have entered into this practice of plural marriage, and if they do not repent they will be expelled from the church”. Now that is what he said to me, and shortly after that he was arrested and taken to Nauvoo, – I mean to Carthage. He said “that he had been approached about this matter, – that is about the matter of plural marriage and he had refused to have anything to do with it”, and that he wanted the High Council called together to take action on the cases of the members of the church who had violated the marriage law in taking plural wives, and that he would prefer charges against them.

745: Who said that?
William Marks.

746: That is what he told you?
Yes sir, that is what he told me that Joseph Smith told him before his death.

747: Why did he say he refused to have anything to do with it?
Because he would have nothing to do with practicing it.

748: Did he say anything with reference to Joseph personally practicing it?
No sir.

749: Did he say anything about Joseph knowing that it was practiced?
no sir he said nothing further than that they had this conversation about it, and that Joseph said there were persons practicing it, and that they, would be cut off from the church if they did not stop it at once, and repent of their wicked practice, and that he would prefer charges against them before the high council, but he was murdered before he had time to do it, – that is what Marks told me.

750: Was there a revelation with reference to polygamy spoken of?
 

751: Had the revelation ever been spoken of at that time.
I don’t know. There was no revelation spoken of at that time between us.

752: Well when was the revelation first spoken of?
It never was spoken of by me at all.

753: Was there anything said in reference to a statement of Joseph Smith that he had been deceived in that doctrine, or any statement to that effect?
 
At what time?

741: Yes, sir.
Well, it was before Joseph’s death.

742: Well, did he say it was before Joseph’s death?
What is that?

743: Well, did he say it was first practiced at Nauvoo?
I don’t know, he said.

744: Well, go ahead and make your answer?
He told me that Joseph came to him at one time, and said to him. “Brother Marks, I am glad that you have not received the teachings of this doctrine, for now we have got to go to work,” he said, “and put down this wicked practice, and I want you to call the High Council together, and I will prefer charges against these members of the church who have entered into this practice of plural marriage; and if they do not repent they will be expelled from the church.” Now, that is what he said to me, and shortly after that he was arrested and taken to Nauvoo–I mean, to Carthage. He sad that he “had been approached about this matter”–that is, about the matter of plural marriage, and “he had refused to have anything to do with it,” and that he wanted the High Council called together to take action on the cases of the members of the church who had violated the marriage law in taking plural wives, and that he would prefer charges against them.

745: Who said that?
William Marks.

746: That is what he told you?
Yes sir, that is what he told me that Joseph Smith told him before his death.

747: Why did he say he refused to have anything to do with it?
Because he would have nothing to do with practicing it.

748: Did he say anythig with reference to Joseph personally practicing it?
No, sir.

749: Did he say anything about Joseph knowing that it was practiced?
No sir, he said nothing further than that they had this conversation about it, and that Joseph said there were persons practicing it, and that they would be cut off from the church if they did not stop it at once and repent of their wicked practice, and that he would prefer charges against them before the Hight Council, but he was murdered before he had time to do it. That is what Marks told me.

750: Was there a revelation with reference to polygamy spoken of?
 

751: Had the revelation ever been spoken of at that time?
I don’t know. There was no revelation spoken of at that time between us.

752: Well, when was the revelation first spoken of?
It never was spoken of by me at all.

753: Was there anything said in reference to a statement of Joseph Smith that he had been deceived in that doctrine, or any statement to that effect?
 
At what time?

741: Yes sir?
Well it was before Joseph’s death?

742: Well did he say it was before Joseph’s death?
What is that?

743: Well did he say it was first practiced at Nauvoo?
I don’t know, – he said, – – – – – –

744: Well go ahead and make your answer?
He told me that Joseph came to him at one time, and said to him, “Brother Marks I am glad that you have not received the teachings of this doctrine, for now we have got to go work” he said” and put down this wicked practice and I want to call the High Council together, and I will prefer charges against these members of the church who have entered into this practice of plural marriage, and if they do not repent they will be expelled from the church”. Now that is what he said to me, and shortly after that he was arrested and taken to Nauvoo, – I mean to Carthage. He said “that he had been approached about this matter, – that is about the matter of plural marriage and he had refused to have anything to do with it”, and that he wanted the High Council called together to take action on the cases of the members of the church who had violated the marriage law in taking plural wives, and that he would prefer charges against them.

745: Who said that?
William Marks.
Yes sir, that is what he told me that Joseph Smith told him before his death.

747: Why did he say he refused to have anything to do with it?
Because he would have nothing to do with practicing it.

748: Did he say anything with reference to Joseph personally practicing it?
No sir.

749: Did he say anything about Joseph knowing that it was practiced?
No sir he said nothing further than that they had this conversation about it, and that Joseph said there were persons practicing it, and that they would be cut off from the church if they did not stop it at once, and repent of their wicked practice, and that he would prefer charges against them before the high council, but he was murdered before he had time to do it, – that is what Marks told me.

750: Was there a revelation with reference to polygamy spoken of?
 

751: Had the revelation ever been spoken of at that time.
I don’t know. There was no revelation spoken of at that time between us.

752: Well when was the revelation first spoken of?
It never was spoken of by me at all.

753: Was there anything said in reference to a statement of Joseph Smith that he had been deceived in that doctrine, or any statement to that effect?
 
At what time?

741: Yes sir?
Well it was before Joseph’s death?

742: Well did he say it was before Joseph’s death?
What is that?

743: Well did he say it was first practiced at Nauvoo?
I don’t know, – he said, ————

744: Well go ahead and make your answer?
He told me that Joseph came to him at one time , and said to him, “Brother Marks I am glad that you have not received the teachings of this doctrine, for now we have got to go to work” he said “and put down this wicked practice, and I want you to call the High Counkil together, and I will prefer charges against these members of the church who have entered into this practice of plural marriage, and if they do not repent they will be expelled from the church”. Now that is what he said to me, and shortly after that he was arrested and taken to Nauvoo, – I mean to Carthage. He said “that he had been approached about this matter, – that is about the matter of plural marriage and he had refused to have anything to do with it”, and that he wanted the High Council called together to take action on the cases of the members of the church who had violated the marriage law in taking plural wives, and that he would prefer charges against them.

745: Who said that?
William Marks.

746: That is what he told you?
Yes sir, that is what he told me that Joseph Smith told him before his death.

747: Why did he say he refused to have anything to do with it?
Because he would have nothing to do with practicing it.

748: Did he say anything with reference to Joseph personally practicing it?
No sir.

749: Did he say anything about Joseph knowing that it was practiced?
No sir he said nothing further than that they had this conversation about it, and that Joseph said there were persons practicing it, and that they would be cut off from the church if they did not stop it at once, and repent of their wicked practice, and that he would prefer charges against them before the high council, but he was murdered before he had time to do it, – that is what Marks told me.

750: Was there a revelation with reference to polygamy spoken of?
 

751: Had the revelation ever been spoken of at that time?
I don’t know. Thee was no revelation spoken of at that time between us.

752: Well when was the revelation first spoken of?
It never was spoken of by me at all.

753: Was there anything said in reference to a statement of Joseph Smith that he had been deceived in that doctrine, or any statement to that effect?
 
No sir I don’t remember that he said anything about that. I don’t think there was anything said about that, but he said that Joseph said there was certain things practiced in the church, and if it was not put down it would be the fall or ruin of the church, and therefore it had to be stopped.

754: What was that?
He mean that those who were practicing these practice, –

755: Well just state what he said, and don’t place a construction on what he said?
Do you want what Marks said to me that Joseph said to him?
He said to Marks, so Marks told me, – “I want you to call the High Council together, and all those who have takel plural wives, I will prefer charges against, – I will prefer charges against all those who have gone into that practice, and they must be tried, and if they don’t confess their guilt, and repent they must be out off the church”.

756: Have you not at some time here to fore stated that Joseph Smith, – that it was understood by Marks as related to you in that conversation by Marks, that Joseph Smith sanctioned the practice of polygamy?
No sir.

757: You did not say that?
I did not.

758: And that you swear to positively?
No sir, – no man has ever heard me say so.

759: Then you have made that statement?
No sir.

760: Do you know anything about a publication called the Nauvoo Expositor?
Yes sir.

761: Did you see that publication about that date?
No sir, I never saw the Nauvoo Expositor at no date, . I heard of it, but I never saw it.

762: You never saw it at any time then?
No sir.

763: You were in the state of Missouri, in Ray County in 1837?
Yes sir.

764: Did you know one Elias Higbee there at that time?
What Higbee?

765: Elias Higbee?
Yes sir I have seen him.

766: When was it you knew him?
It was when he was, – when I was a boy I mean.

767: Do you know when he left Missouri?
No sir.

768: Well what time did you leave?
In ’38.

769: What time in the year did you leave?
In October.

770: Do you know whether Elias Higbee was in the country there at that time, or not?
No sir, I just remember the time, – I remember that he was there and I saw him, but as to telling what time he moved out or anything about it I can’t do it at all.

771: Did you ever see him at all after you left the state of Missouri?
I could not say.

772: Did you know one J.C. Gates over there in Ray County?
No sir.

773: Or Yates?
No sir, I did not know either of them. I never got acquainted with either of them.

774: With either Gates or Yates?
No sir, – neither of them.

775: Do you know whether Higbee was a member of the church over there in Ray County or not?
No sir.

776: You don’t know whether Higbee was a member of the church at that time or not?
No sir that is something that I can’t tell you anything about at all.

777: That is all you know about this case?
I think so.

778: Well that is all.